Another Baum ?

[ptk1126]

Today I had the opportunity to visit the Filson Club in Louisville Ky to again measure and photograph one of their rifles.
Unfortunately, the Filson does not display any of their guns and of seven guns I asked to see they could only find three.

The one I studied today has had hard use and some rough modifications. The barrel seems to have been shortened, the
full stock cut back to half stock, and the lock converted to percussion. However, there are many interesting features and to
my inexpert eye they seem to indicate a Samuel Baum, but there are no markings.

LOA 47 1/8"  Barrel 32 1/8" L  Barrel 1 1/8" straight octagon, bore 0.45"  LOP 13"




Note the Baum style wear plate




Conversion to percussion. Although a flint plate, I am not sure it was original to the gun.
Lock 4 11/16" L x 1" H


Nice comb plate 6 3/4" L


Two piece side plate


Cheek inlays and well worn carving


Patch box similar to several I have seen on signed Baum rifles  LOA about 7 1/4"


Sorry if I have posted too many pix. I have close ups and detailed measurements of most areas so
let me know if there is anything else you would like to see.

Enjoy
Paul

[tallbear]

Paul
There's never enough pics!!Thanks for posting

Mitch

[David Rase]

Paul,  I was at the Filson club about 9 years ago.  While there I was able to get access to the little building in the back where the gentleman that took us back there pulled out a number of nice guns for us to examine.  One gun he enjoyed showing us was a shotgun used by John Audubon.  He told us that John used this shotgun to dispatch birds he wanted to paint.  He would kill them, mount them and paint them.
DMR

[ptk1126]

David - The guy who took you into the back building (what they call the museum) was probably
Jim Holmberg, the curator of special collections.

They still have the Audubon gun and many others, but their computer inventory only contains about
7-8 flintlocks, of which about half were apparently "deaccessioned" before they were entered into
the computer in 1999.

All the best
Paul

[Don Getz]

Paul ....Is the gun signed by Baum?   I am assuming it was a full stock at one time, but cut off and made into a half stock.
It has some features of a Baum....the carving behind the cheek piece, the moon on the cheek piece, and the engraving
on the patch box all look proper from that area.  The triggers, trigger guard and side plate are not what you normally see
on a Baum, but, on the other hand it could be....I have learned that you can't say he never did this, or that........Don

[mr. no gold]

Don is absolutely right; it 'could' be a Baum rifle. The Upper Susq schools had more traits and decorative elements that were traded around among the makers than any other school I know of. If a maker didn't initial, or sign his work, it becomes darned tough to make a hard and fast decision as to who actually made a rifle. It's almost as if S. Baum had been cloned numerous times. He must have mentored many, many makers, and passed his designs to them, as well, they are so ubiquitous.
This is a nice rifle and we thank you for showing it around. It must have associations with early Kentucky and one wonders what they were. Does the Filson Club have any records on this or the other holdings?
Dick

[ptk1126]

Don - It is not signed.

Dick - Not really trying to claim it as a Baum. It just seemed that the wear plate, patch box, wrist inlays,
          use of a comb plate, the moon on the cheek, and the carving were sufficient to stimulate discussion.
          It also seems in the same school as the one that Hoot Al was copying.

          Not sure that this gun had any connection to Kentucky other than it was part of a collection donated
          by a local family (Durette ?) quite a few years ago. A majority of the Filson's guns came from that source.

All the best
Paul

[Spotz]

Interesting rifle with a definite tie to the Upper Susquehanna.  It could have been produced in the Baum shop or "factory."  When it left the shop, I would bet that it was a full stock and may be from the late flint period.  Then again, it was not uncommon to use the two piece sidplate and fill in or never drill the front hole through to the lock, especially in the 1835-1845 period.  Others have pointed out that Baum, and his minyons, were prolific makers.  I recently handled a Baum Jr. with a football sideplate that looks like a Joe Long, but the "S*B" signature did not lie.  I tend to think there was a tie between Baum Jr., Long and Morrison, as they each utilized the football sideplate.  Then again, I would not find it uncommon that the style was emulated as it became more common.  Thanks for sharing. 

[Don Getz]

Jeff....these are fun guns to study.   I don't know if you have noticed this, but, almost all of these Snyder, Union, Northumberland county rifles had names, or initials, on the barrel, almost as if they were proud of their work, and wanted
people to know who made it.  It would be an interesting study if one could find out who all worked in that "Baum" factory,
or whatever he created.  I had mentioned earlier about the "M. Beaver" gun I owned, I am sure it was built in that factory, but have not seen another by that maker.  There have to be guns out there made by others with all the traits of
a Baum.  Interesting guns...................Don

[JTR]

Here’s another one, this one signed with stamped letters on the barrel, SMITHER.
Probably a latter gun, as it has a single bolt lock and the side plate is a little less fancy that the earlier ones.
I think a guy could make an entire collection of these upper Sisq guns, and at this point they don’t command big bucks for the most part.
By the way, this one is for sale on gunbroker, not by me nor do I have any association with the seller. It has a nice toe plate and another down the comb,,, but has a poorly replaced forearm, replaced lock, and maybe the breech end of the barrel cut back a bit.

John

[Spotz]

A collection of Upper Susquehanna guns...a good idea to me, but others are picking up on this quickly and prices starting climbing in the last couple of years.  I know that I can't buy what I used to for a reasonable price.  I also like Don's idea on a study and I have to admit my current page count is at about 90.  I didn't even start saying much yet.  I also have an individual who has graciously agreed to take Dallas Ewing's list, expanded by me, and study the geneaology and connections in the Upper Susquehanna.  No one has done this in book form, yet, and I think it is an interesting way to present data on the Upper Susquehanna.

I am very familiar with the Smither gun.  It is reasonably priced, despite the issues you mentioned.  I have no connection to the seller other than the fact that he is rapidly developing as a student of the Kentucky rifle.  I tend to think the Smither rifle is early, with the buckhorn sideplate used by both Dreisbach and Baum.  But who the heck is Smither?  There are Smiths building rifles during this period in Union County, including George Smith and Peter Smith.  Peter Smith Sr. eventually moved from Union County to Mifflin and later Huntingdon County.  There Peter Smith Sr., Jr., and Samuel Smith built some pretty neat guns.  Could Smither be Peter Smith?  Maybe this is how George and Peter distinguished themselves at one point, but Smither is in block letters if I remember correctly.  During this time frame, a script signature would be more common but you can never eliminate the possibility of an early stamped signature.  Anyone's guess is as good as mine, but I agree with Don, there is so much we don't know about the Upper Susquehanna, but we do know that at one time there were far in excess of 10 gunsmiths in New Berlin and I tend to think they all had a connection to Baum.

[JTR]

Here's a close up of the name the seller sent me several days ago.



And I agree this would be a good time for a book on this school of rifles as it's about the only major area not already covered.
Whether this rifle is early or later I don't really know. I assume later due the single bolt lock (no forward hole in the side plate), but admittedly there are some earlier guns with single bolt flintlocks.

John