Flint Lock Speed

[kudu]

I Think I been Thinkin too much.
But recently I been shootin alot of line matches.
 I use the same caliber gun .50 - same barrel straight Rice same barrel dimensions outside and length. patches ball lube sights all the same. FOR TWO GUNS ONE A FLINT AND ONE A SIDE FLAPPER.

The thing is my scores for the flint are noticably lower. it has to be the lock time on the flint.
When shooting cross stick or off the bench the Flinter will shoot excellent. some times better than the Mule Ear. but the offhand score is what suffers.

I know that "Pelch" or somebody does lock timing studies but has anyone done a test with electronic timer WHEN THE BALL ACTUALLY LEAVES THE BARREL If I had the expertise I may use a piece of alluminum foil as a circut in front of the muzzle . Maybe a thin strip 1/4" wide 3" long, about 1" in front off the muzzle with a wire clipped to each side and when the foil broke the timer would stop. 

How would you start the time in the gun the sear breaking is when but how?

I think about this stuff too much. 

[Mike Brooks]

If you want to shoot your flintlock to the best of your ability you need to put the caplock away. Your flintlock shooting will rapidly improve, you'll learn follow through which is what your problem is.

[Daryl]

For anyone, the gun is always moving. You quite likely cannot hold it still, on target while it goes off. 

The trick is timing as everyone (who took lessons on shooting) knows.  Firing the gun as the sights are coming in on the bull (centre of the target) is the trick - it's all about timing. 

With large targets, like most gong targets, this becomes easy - with practice, but as Mike notes, put away the side slapper.

The timing is WAY different for capper than it is with the flinter.

Once you get 'on to the flinter', your ignition time may seem to improve as you start to ignore the clap/flash/boom and only concentrate on hitting the middle - timing - it's all about timing.

Offhand is MUCH easier for me with a cap-lock.  For Taylor, it seems about equal.

[Stoner creek]

If you want to shoot your flintlock to the best of your ability you need to put the caplock away. Your flintlock shooting will rapidly improve, you'll learn follow through which is what your problem is.

Yep, What Brooks said!!!!

[Darkhorse]

I went through the same thing many years ago. I had no expert help to go to but finally got it all worked out.
1. I believe in tuning my locks to be as slick and fast as possible, this includes adjusting the size of the touch hole if needed.
2. People get real sensitive when the subject of flinching comes up. Most of these are some of the worst flinchers. I will say this, when I started flintlocks I was already an accomplished percussion shooter. I had no flinching problems and taught many new shooters. So when I started flintlock shooting I expected my shots to go in the 9 and 10 rings, offhand, just like I was used to. Didn't happen. Off a bench the rifle was shooting out the X but when I shot offhand I had a good group but it was in the lower left of the target, LH shooter. Back to the bench. Same results. I couldn't figure it out. Finally I figured it out, I was flinching. So I applied myself to controlling it and now it's gone and I hit where I aim. This didn't happen overnight, took some work, but I'm happy with the results.
3. There's still more to accurately shooting a flintlock than that. As Mike said one still needs to learn follow through and proper form. The only way to get there is to practice a lot.
4. This is more than just one thing. It's like a process to get where it all works together.
FWIW that's the approach I take and it works for me.

[EC121]

Percussion guns will make you try to "grab" a shot as the sights pass the target.  A flintlock will let you know it won't work that way.  I've seen people start lowering their rifle as soon as they touch the trigger on a percussion rifle.  A flintlock needs to be held on the sight picture until the recoil pushes it off.  You should be able to have the gun misfire and the sights should never move from the sight picture.  Compare the scores on the NMLRA matches.  The flinters shoot almost the same scores as the percussions.  Like Daryl said the gun is going to wobble so timing and follow-through have a lot to do with it.
     Watch the "hard holders" in your group.  I have shot with a few older ex-military rifle shooters who moved to blackpowder.  It looks like you could do chin ups on their barrel, and the sights won't move down.  They also don't force a shot.  They will lower the gun and get a new hold if they can't get the shot off.

[Daryl]

Lowering the gun for a 'fresh' attempt is Sooooo difficult, but necessary. The forced shots rarely hit.

[bob in the woods]

I learned a hard lesson re using a flintlock fowling gun for ducks and geese. I missed a bunch that I would have hit with my percussion. That was a long time ago, but I decided to use a flintlock exclusively for that year.  After I while I started hitting what I shot at again.  It literally changes how you shoot. I notice how many percussion rifle shooters start to lower their rifles as soon as the shot is off. I practised holding through the shot and my scores improved for all guns, even breechloaders.

[hanshi]

Flinching when the pan ignites has never been a problem for me.  Also, my flintlock shooting never took a backseat to percussion accuracy.  Most of my best targets were shot with flintlocks.  Of course some might say that I couldn't hit a hubcap at 25 yards with either one.  There might be some truth to that but I can still hit a deer in the right spot beyond 60-75 yards and a squirrel's head at 25.  But I started off with my first flintlock only around three years after I got my first percussion; I've learned a lot in the intervening 55 years.  Shooting a flintlock A LOT will definitely make one a better shot with both.

[oldtravler61]

  All excellent advice. The only thing I will add is own a well made rifle or shotgun that FITS you. Oldtravler
 

[Larry Pletcher]

(snipped. . . . . .)
I know that "Pletch" or somebody does lock timing studies but has anyone done a test with electronic timer WHEN THE BALL ACTUALLY LEAVES THE BARREL If I had the expertise I may use a piece of alluminum foil as a circut in front of the muzzle . Maybe a thin strip 1/4" wide 3" long, about 1" in front off the muzzle with a wire clipped to each side and when the foil broke the timer would stop. 
How would you start the time in the gun the sear breaking is when but how?
I think about this stuff too much.

Kudu,
First of all, I think you have gotten good advice about shooting flint guns.  My comments here are not meant to steer you from the advice you have been given. 

Instead this is to answer your questions about timing a flint gun.  First I'd suggest thinking in a slightly different order.  We can assume, I think, that a barrel ignited by flint or percussion should have the same barrel time.  That means that the difference in time happens before the barrel ignites.  From timing tests I've done a percussion ignites a barrel in .020 seconds, give or take.  With a flint gun we have to add the pan ignition time to the pan to barrel ignition time.  A typical flint ignition time might be .040 seconds and good vent ignition is .035 to .040 seconds.  So, I'd compare a percussion ignition at .020sec.   to a flint barrel ignition time at .075 to .080 seconds. My gut says that the percussion barrel has a .055 sec head start over the flint barrel. (These numbers are based on averages - I usually do 20 trials and find the average.  This also assumes that NO variables creep in.)

In an additional test I did do sear trip to muzzle time, but it was on a pistol barrel.  In that test I made a fixture to hold  the stock with a lock mortice for a small Siler.  I used a solenoid to push on the sear and start timer.  A photo cell "looking" across the muzzle stopped time.  Swapping locks in this test gave similar results. 

This type of experimenting is fun but doesn't address the shooting skills that the comments above have done so well.  Please learn from the shooters above.
Regards,
Pletch

[Marcruger]

Pletch's test are wonderful.  Sort of like Consumer Reports for longrifles.   :-) 

Oddly, I had no issue with switching to a muzzleloader offhand.  I was shooting a BPCR, so maybe I had already accommodated for the long dwell time in the barrel?  My personal opinion is that my long swamped barrel's stability seems to offset the long dwell time.  In fact, my flinter is perhaps my best offhand rifle, equaling or surpassing my best modern rifle. 

I took a class with three Marines on the USMC Pistol Team.  They gave great advice directly applicable to longrifles offhand. 

1) Just because you lift a gun up to shoot, doesn't mean you have to touch off a shot.  If you haven't broken the shot in something like 3-5 seconds, you start to wobble.  Lower the gun, take a breath, and start again.  No harm, no foul. 

2) When you can clearly see the shape of the front sight, you are concentrating on it enough.  I have to use mild reading glasses to see the front sight that well.  It works though.  Front sight sharp.  Rear sight and target fuzzy. 

3) Ignore "shake".  Some days you have jitters or shakes.  Apparently it has zero effect on your group and score.  It will shake your confidence, until you remind yourself, "not an issue".  One of the Marines won a match with the gun shaking the whole time. 

4) "Wobble" is an issue.  Practice and conditioning help this. Everyone wobbles to some degree.  If you yank the trigger "as it goes past", you'll miss most times.  Accept your wobble on any given day, as there is no way to stop it.  That is, unless you can get a rest, which is always best in the field.  A handy tree is a great friend.   

5) When lining up to shoot, close you eyes, mount the gun, then open your eyes.  Instead of twisting your upper body, move your feet instead.  That way recoil will be all up-and-down, rather than the added yaw to one side or the other.  The long dwell time for a longrifle exaggerates that issue. 

I hope these tips help someone.  They sure helped me. 

One last suggestion on grip.  I grip my longrifle tight.  I don't want lax muscles to allow the barrel to move any more than it has to in recoil.  Also, on a bench, I never let the rifle touch a bag or surface.  I lay my hand on the bag, with the rifle in my tight grip.  In the rear I use a big soft bag for my elbow, and brace my chest against the bench.  Same as for BPCR.  A gun bouncing and whipping off of rests with a slow roundball going down the barrel doesn't work for me.   

Best wishes, and God Bless,   Marc

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Marcruger:  excellent advice.

[bones92]

The one upside to a flash in the pan is that it will tell you if you are exhibiting good form or not.  I have been chastened by a flintlock rifle when the flash of the pan and the flinch that follows reminded me to focus on fundamentals.

Kudu, the other issue may be ignition time, thought technically it shouldn't matter, in reality it does.  A quick ignition almost always improves the flinter's score.  This is a whole different topic, though.

As for me, I try to think about "sight alignment, trigger control" as I learned on the Marine Corps rifle and pistol range. 

[Bob Roller]

Holding through the instant of ignition works for me.Also the lock and the vent
are all important because the fastest lock ever made is crippled by a vent that's
not right.

Bob Roller

[oldtravler61]

  Ditto...An well said Bob...!   Oldtravler

[n stephenson]

One easy way to tell if your flinching is , when you have a fall of the hammer or  a flash in the pan . I`ve seen a lot of shooters flinch , that didn't think they were.