Choosing a lock for a project

[Scota4570]

I think I will make replica of:

https://jamesdjulia.com/item/lot-2387-outstanding-jacob-kunz-flintlock-half-stock-rifle-48490/

I need a lock, this is pretty close but the tail is wrong.  IT looks like I would have to add material and then reshape.  How good do these locks function?

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/724/2/LOCK-LK-F

Any thing I am missing?
Is there a closer lock out there I did not find? 

Scot

[Bob Roller]

I think I will make replica of:

https://jamesdjulia.com/item/lot-2387-outstanding-jacob-kunz-flintlock-half-stock-rifle-48490/

I need a lock, this is pretty close but the tail is wrong.  IT looks like I would have to add material and then reshape.  How good do these locks function?

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/724/2/LOCK-LK-F

Any thing I am missing?
Is there a closer lock out there I did not find? 

Scot

I would vote for the Chambers Late Ketland.It's by far the best production lock available.

Bob Roller

[smylee grouch]

That Kunz rifle looks like the same one Schumway wrote about in one of his articles for Muzzle Blasts magazine years ago. Beautiful gun and has Jocob Kunz signature all over it even if it wasn't signed. I think you could use that Davis lock and weld extra on to the rear of the lock plate and work it down but I don't know how the welded portion would finish compared to the regular lock plate.

[Scota4570]

Too bad it look nothing like the lock on the original rifle. 

[rich pierce]

You need a waterproof pan so either the Davis or the L&R is suitable there. Or you could get crazy and isolate the pan on a Chambers Late Ketland if you're good with hacksaw and files and there's enough room.

[Majorjoel]

I know this one isn't a perfect match but is a bit closer than the square tail Davis lock.
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/724/4/LOCK-LR-900

[rsells]

I am going to copy a rifle down the road a bit that has a lock like you are trying to copy, and I am going to use Chamber's late Ketland and modify the pan and fence area to get the look I need.  The late Ketland is a great lock.
                                                                            Roger Sells

[Scota4570]

It is too bad that locks for which a blank plate is available are not more common. 

The late English has too much curve in the belly.  Metal is hard to add, the plate would not reshape.

The Chambers is undoubtly an excellent lock.  I don't see how the fence could be reshaped.  I could see how a fence could be added though.   How is the interior of the pan trough, will it accomidate reshaping to look like the original rifle's lock?   

It looks like the Davis Late Ketland is closest and easiest to change.  Should I to infer from the silence that it is not a highly regarded lock, function wise. 

[flehto]

Buy the Chambers gunmaker's lock which is just a rectangular plate that can be made into whatever you desire. .....Fred

[smylee grouch]

I have that Davis lock on my 62 half stock English style gun. It has been a good working lock so far. It's not a Bob Roller lock by any means but it was the only choice I had if I wanted that style. My only complaint on the lock is the jaws need a somewhat shorter flint so I have to knapp the back side of my flints before I install them. It has been a good sparker and now I'm getting 40+ shots out of a flint.

[blienemann]

Hi Scot,

Compliments for looking to the old guns for design.  If you round the tail on the Davis lock and add a bit of engraving, you'll be close.  Best quick way to get there.

This was the Ron Long lock 40 years ago, designed in part for the Hawken rifles that were all the rage then.  Looking at the rifle you wish to copy, Jake and Sam may have done the same.  If you look at old Muzzleloader mags, Herschel, Steve Davis and all used this lock as their favorite on their squirrel rifles and others.  Would be fine for English trade rifles of that period.  First made by Ron, then by Silver Fox, then Tom Faux all from CO, and then picked up by Davis. 

The frizzen spring is a bit small re the old locks, but that's what Ron designed, and the lock works fine on rifles or pistols.  Others and I have used a lot of them for many years, very happy. 

So many posts here support "my favorite supplier" or high quality internals, but if the goal is to match old locks on old rifles - their external design, no one outfit has all the right locks for all purposes.  Compliments on wanting to get the design right.  Lead the pack, don't follow.  Learn along the way.  Next step will be building your own locks - maybe.  And thanks for the link to a very fine and interesting rifle.  Bob

[Scota4570]

I appreciate all the input and guidance.  I guess I am missing some important knowledge.  I can not understand how the right hand column locks could be made to look like the original.  The locks on the left have a separate pan and fence.  The pan is integral with the plate.  The fence is separate from the pan.  The shape of the frizzens are much different.  On the right we have pans that are made as a separate part and attached to the plate.  The pan is very flat as wide.   The fence is part of the pan. The pans are about even with the top of the back of the plate.   I can not see a path to make a lock in the right hand column look anything like the original at the top left. 






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[blienemann]

You are asking good questions, while many posts seem generic and oft repeated without taking a close look at an OP's questions or original locks.

Note the pan on the old lock is stepped down from the top of lockplate, and the Long / Davis late Ketland copies that detail.  Too many modern locks have the top of pan up even with top of lock, which looks odd and affects layout, forcing the entire lock and tail lower, and may yield a hump or too thick a wrist.  Slightly rounding this square tail gets close.  You can sometimes exchange finished cocks, top jaws, frizzens and screws to come closer to a particular old lock.  Or buy castings that come closer.  A bit of filing here and there adds up.  Ideally the cock top jaw screw should be back to the rear with very little air showing behind it -  it's extra work, but you can plug the hole and re-drill and tap to the rear.  Use a top jaw screw that is only threaded as far as necessary, and often use a heavier screw than is supplied with modern locks - to match the old.  Top jaw usually is longer than bottom, and the ledge is filed so that when screw is tightened, the camming action holds the flint tightly. Screw slots are usually tapered on the old locks.

 Acquire an old lock or two for study, and save all these online photos of good examples - when sure they are original flint, build up a reference.  Keep studying and trying to do a better job each time.  Not everyone will notice the extra work, but those who know the old guns will appreciate the extra effort.

 

[Mike Brooks]

It is too bad that locks for which a blank plate is available are not more common. 

The late English has too much curve in the belly.  Metal is hard to add, the plate would not reshape.

The Chambers is undoubtly an excellent lock.  I don't see how the fence could be reshaped.  I could see how a fence could be added though.   How is the interior of the pan trough, will it accomidate reshaping to look like the original rifle's lock?   

It looks like the Davis Late Ketland is closest and easiest to change.  Should I to infer from the silence that it is not a highly regarded lock, function wise.

The Davis late Ketland is a good lock. I have it on my own personal squirrel rifle. Very dependable and fast. Round off the tail on it and you have your Kunz lock.

[okawbow]

I have the same Late Ketland lock, only it was assembled by the Hawken shop on two guns. It's fast and dependable.

That's the one I would use, either from Davis or The Hawken shop.

[QuanLoi]

Although I hesitate to make a negative suggestion about a particular lock, see my post "Lock Geometry Question" regarding the Davis Late English lock... I'm aware others have no problems with the lock, but if I had to do the build over again, I would have chosen another lock.

[Scota4570]

Thanks for the "Heads up". 

I see Kunz used a Nock made lock on another rifle with the square tail, it looks just like the Davis. 

Regarding your observation on the short comings of the lock,  I think you may be able to tune it.  Others with more experience may be able to comment on my ideas. 

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=45209.0

Scot

[Bob Roller]

I think I will make replica of:

https://jamesdjulia.com/item/lot-2387-outstanding-jacob-kunz-flintlock-half-stock-rifle-48490/

I need a lock, this is pretty close but the tail is wrong.  IT looks like I would have to add material and then reshape.  How good do these locks function?

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/724/2/LOCK-LK-F

Any thing I am missing?
Is there a closer lock out there I did not find? 


I just looked at the Julia Auction picture of that lock and I think if a small lock'is needed then the L&R Small Manton
can easily be filed to that plate contour or if a bigger one is needed then their "Late English" (Ashmore) lock can be
altered.The lock shown is a good looking one but not a top of the line English lock.

Bob Roller

Scot