Annealing hard brass for filing?

[Chowmi]

I had to peen the rear extension of a trigger guard just a small bit to extend the tail in order to make up for an inletting error.  I annealed it, then peened it with just a few hits.  This was a trigger guard from TOTW, and I have found that they seem to be made of a harder alloy than others.

Afterward, I did some minor filing and found that it was much easier to file than other brass castings I had from TOTW.  It occurred to me that I might anneal the whole thing prior to filing off the casting marks etc etc. 

These castings from TOTW seem much harder to file than nice soft yellow brass, and I find it to be aggravating.  Does anyone anneal hard brass to make filing easier?  Would that work, or was I just dreaming?

I'd much rather work with nice soft yellow brass, but that is what I have for my current project.

Let me know what you think,

cheers,
Norm

[SingleMalt]

It may be yellow bronze.  Harder, and in my opinion, not as easy to anneal.  Use a sharp file and keep it clean.  Watch for pinning.

[Chowmi]

  Watch for pinning.

I'm an idiot, what is "pinning"?  Clogging the file? 

Cheers,
Norm

[SingleMalt]

That's a little chip that gets caught in the file teeth and leaves a scratch that, you guessed it, must be filed out.  An empty shell casing, .30-30, .30-06, etc., with the neck flattened works well to clear pins from file teeth.  Push the casing across the file with the teeth and it will come out.

[Chowmi]

That's a little chip that gets caught in the file teeth and leaves a scratch that, you guessed it, must be filed out.  An empty shell casing, .30-30, .30-06, etc., with the neck flattened works well to clear pins from file teeth.  Push the casing across the file with the teeth and it will come out.

Aahhh, yes, I have heard of using an empty brass casing for that.  Thank you.

Cheers,
Norm

[SingleMalt]

Glad I could help.

[Long John]

Norm,

I believe that many of the TOTW "brass" casting are actually phosphor bronze.  Phosphor bronze is harder than real brass, harder to bend, doesn't anneal as thoroughly and is, in general, harder to work.  But, it does not contain zinc which is a problem when you are casting as zinc vaporizes out of the melt making it hard to control the alloy composition and an environmental issue.

When I am working phosphor bronze I always anneal twice, a second time right after the first, and re-anneal, twice, as soon as I begin to notice any hardness in the part.  This has worked for me.

Best Regards,

JMC
John Cholin 

[Scota4570]

Phosphor bronze ?

Yeah Track does that, probably others too.  The parts are junk IMHO.  They looks wrong, are hard to work and tend to snap when bent.  I do not consiter phoshor bronze to be suitable for the application. 

Ask them when you order regardiging what you are getting.  It can be deal breaker for me.  I really whish they would be candid about the material.  They call all the yellow stuff "brass", which is not true.

I often end up throwing stuff like this in the trash.  IT is not worth my time or frustration.  It happens a lot with parts I buy via mail order, maybe 20% is scrap. 

[Bob Roller]

Maybe contacting the foundry and asking if there is a reason to
make parts from whatever yellow metal and calling it brass.
I hate the smell of brass and never did like it on a gun of any
kind.

Bob Roller

[flehto]

Years ago I bought an investment cast Bplate and TG from Tow and then built a LR. The buyer lives close by and I'm able to see the LR every so often. The pic below shows the aging of the phosphor bronze Bplate  that was advertised as brass.

If one polishes the 2 items mentioned, the pink color disappears and looks somewhat like brass. The 2 items req'd very sharp , new files  to finish and luckily because they were investment cast parts, didn't need a whole lot of filing.

After the lesson learned, only yellow brass was used.....Fred

[Scota4570]

Is there any way to tell from appearance if the part is real brass or a type of bronze? 

[JCKelly]

If you seriously want good quality soft brass gun hardware then take the time to go through the relaxed and personal rituals associated with buying from Reaves Goehring, in Lancaster County (not the town), Pennsylvania. You will learn a great deal about Kentucky rifles in the process, and get a fine product. Mr. Goehring is a gentleman, and a most knowledgeable one.

I will not provide contact or other details, feel it best you get them yourself.

When you buy some metal casting, whether sand or investment, it is very  important to choose one of the alloys which that foundry regularly casts. I can assure you from work experience that this is true of large industrial customers as well as home shop guys.

The terms "brass" and "bronze" had, more or less, some meaning in Biblical times. We still use the words but . . . In 2004 the SAE  listed over 500 different alloys, whose names include various combinations of the words copper, brass and bronze. The alloying elements used now cover the alphabet from the most ancient, Arsenic, to the newest, Zirconium.

Leave the details to Mr. Goehring.

Or buy from otherwise fine dealers & get something more or less yellow which you can file, sometimes easily, sometimes not. All I can tell you about any of them is please do not heat them to bend them. Almost all brass/bronze castings or sheet/bar have a little lead added. This helps machining - and engraving. If you heat the thing to bend it you may have made tiny puddles of molten lead which run along the grain boundaries & make the stuff crumble when you bend it. Anneal if it helps you. Do all your bending and pounding near room temperature.

[Mike Brooks]

You guys go and try and use all the goehring brass mounts you want. I have used tons of it over the years it's great if you don't intend to engrave it, it engraves like oatmeal, too soft. If I need to engrave it I'll take my goehring casting down to the local foundry and have them cast a copy of it. I don't know what they use, but I can at least engrave it.

[Chowmi]

Thanks for all the replies.  I will anneal the castings of unknown yellow metal from TOTW before I file them.

I bought the trigger guard and butt plate almost two years ago before I knew any better. Needless to say, I won't do that again.

I already have hardware for my next two builds cast from nice softer yellow brass.

I will look up Reeves Goehring as well for future projects.

Thanks again,
Norm.

[Bill Raby]

   Anneal if you need to do any forming. But best too leave it hard if you do not need to. Yes, it is harder to file. Good files take care of that. Use power tools only you have lots of experience working with them. When it is harder to file it is also harder to scratch and wear.

[Carl Young]

The link below for "Metallurgy for the Non-Metallurgist" (1998), on pages 103-104 discusses in simple terms the work-hardening and annealing of brass (~70%Cu/<30%Zn).

https://books.google.com/books?id=arupok8PTBEC&pg=PA191&dq=Metallurgy+1800s+Brass&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiBgd6Rz-zWAhVE4YMKHaCdAaEQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=Brass&f=false

This textbook is in common use in vocational/technical schools in my area. Regretfully I have not found any of these vocational/technical schools to be interested in applying this knowledge.

Another source for brass recipes is The Practical Brass & Iron Founder's Guide (1853). https://books.google.com/books?id=STkKAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA4&dq=The+practical+brass+and+iron+founder%27s+guide&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiUxqXI1-zWAhVK6IMKHW7YAjsQ6AEIMjAC#v=onepage&q=The%20practical%20brass%20and%20iron%20founder's%20guide&f=false

Carl