Setting Up For Engraving

[Bill Raby]

   I am finally starting on engraving. After a lot of practice I would say that my work is not quite good, but it is acceptable. I am doing the hammer and chisel engraving. I can see how with time and practice I could eventually get good at it. Most importantly I have decided that I am willing to put in the time that it will take to actually get good at engraving. I have a Lindsay graver and a silent air compressor on the way. Ball vise, sharpening templates, and all the little bits and pieces will be coming soon. I plan to get a good microscope by summer. This stuff is expensive and a good microscope will cost some real money. Have to save up for that for a few months.

   I am looking for recommendations on how to set it all up. I would love to see what some of you have for engraving. I don't have room in the shop for a space dedicated for engraving. I need something that can be put away when not in use. I am thinking maybe a small folding table and possibly a separate stand to mount the microscope. Maybe even ball vise mounted on a post. I don't know. What is a good table height when used with a ball vise and microscope? I figure microscope on articulated arm is the way to go. Any other options? I have to plan on something that wil be comfortable for many hours. Any advice is appreciated.

[smart dog]

Hi Bill,
You really do not need the microscope unless you plan on doing very fine bank note or Bulino style engraving, none of which looks right on 17th, 18th, and early 19th century firearms.  If you are thinking about doing more modern work on guns, knives, and such then by all means consider a scope but you don't need it for the guns we consider here.

dave

[Mike Brooks]

I wouldn't even know how to use that stuff let alone how to set it up. I'm just a hammer and chisel guy with the part glued to a block of wood in my vice, that's all I have ever had. Congrats to you for taking  a mighty leap forward, you'll end up light years ahead of me. I think I'm choosing a good time to retire, you new guys are out spending me and smoking me in quality.

[Kingsburyarms]

Bill - sounds like you are getting together a wonderful setup! - Smart Dog is right. My engraving Master had me start out with just a magnifying loop, with just push graver on softer practice metals. After a year or two, I started using the Lindsay setup (with the silent compressor) and did more work on harder steel and tempered metal. I just started with a microscope, but only for the very small "Bank Note" or extreme shading type of engraving. None of the flintlock work I have done (very little) uses that level of detail.

Take that Lindsay system and learn to sharpen, then sharpen, and when you think it's sharp, sharpen it, then make test plates and practice - it's different that the hammer/chisel and the funny thing was I taught my engraving master how to use the Lindsay!!! (He was a silversmith for 60 years). You will love it. I use both push, hammer and Lindsay for my work.

As a temporary setup, just keep things clean, use a bright light and practice - a table where you can work with the ball at a height that's best for you would be a great start, some use a post to "wrap around" their work, but I have the luxury of a dedicated area. I bought one of those tempered glass cutting boards at the local store, you know this ones with texture on them, took the rubber feet off the bottom, and turned it over - now I have a flat, glass surface to sharpen my graver points - it's portable, always flat and I can store it away if needed.

Do you have an instructor or class you are attending?  - would be real smart to take some classes, or to have someone show you the Lindsay system in action - Sure helps the learning curve.

Here is my setup - and if you are ever in New England - there is cold beer in the fridge, and we engrave until you get tired! - I'm a rookie and learning, but I practice almost every night, knives, Zippo's and coins - anything I can cut!!!

Jon

[n stephenson]

Jon, That is a NICE! set up you have there , almost a lab . Your set up is great but, that dentist light you've got there made me cringe !!  Actually I have wanted a light like that for a while. Really great job on the lock as well!! Nice . Nate

 

[dogcatcher]

Table height depends on you, it will be what you are comfortable with.  I went cheap, it is a hobby, I made a ball vise using a bowling ball.  I cut the bowling ball in 2 pieces, one I mounted a drill press vise, the other I have a stub of a 1-8 threaded bolt sticking out of it.  The latter I can mount the chucks from my wood lathe.  The latter is my woodcarving vise, but also gets engraving use.  Lots of pictures on Google images of bowling ball engraving vise.

For magnification, I went with the Optivisor.  At $25, it was cheap, and I also added a couple extra lenses, once I found the lens that worked best for me I bought another headset just for it.   Total invested is about $65 for 2 headsets and extra lens.

Sharpening, I looked at the Lindsey templates, the GRS systems, then I got to studying them and finally followed Shaun Hughes video on making a sharpening template.  This video.      Made some changes, first I took apart a T handle tapping wrench and used the collet end as my tool holder.  Using a protractor, and flying by the seat of my pants, I came up with the angles that worked for me.  I went with 1/8" square and round lathe tool bits that I got from MSC for my gravers.   I also spent hours searching the Internet for ideas, and have some other sharpening "concoctions". 

I had tried the NGraver handpiece that is powered by a Foredom unit.  It was my only major engraving purchase, I found a complete used unit for $220.  I also chose it because of it's woodcarving capabilities.   Foredom also has a similar unit on the market, I think it is less than $400 new.   But I also used Maze concrete nails to make hand gravers, the nails were cheap, they were my experimental source for designing my sharpening system. 

[Kingsburyarms]

Jon, That is a NICE! set up you have there , almost a lab . Your set up is great but, that dentist light you've got there made me cringe !!  Actually I have wanted a light like that for a while .Really great job on the lock as well!! Nice . Nate

Thanks Nate - I am friends with my Dentist, and when he remodeled his office, he went from the Halogen to LED "Operating lights" so he had two systems he just gave me. I had to rewire them, but they are great for the shop - one for the engraving, one for the building You can get them cheap if you look hard enough (Craig's list etc.)

[jerrywh]

  Evidently you don't have room for this kind of set up now but it may give you some ideas for later. I got the idea for the microscope mount from Accer or Tom Curran. It enables me to swing a 42" barrel almost all the way around.
You need to mount your vise on a post or floor stand. If the vise is not solid it will cause you to break a lot of tips on the gravers. Just putting a vise on a bench will cause a lot of problems with gravers breaking. It's the vibration that causes it.

[Pukka Bundook]

It really depends on what level of engraving you want to do.

If too fine , it doesn't fit with the longrifle.  I know we all know that but sometimes forget it. 
If engraving looks like it came out of a London shop, we have got it wrong. If wildlife... animals,  look like a photograph, we have got it wrong.
Simple equipment is best, for most purposes.   

I do recall though, the old blokes who engraved for Purdey, H& H, Boss & Co, and they used no optical very often maybe spectacles and that was it, and engraved with a window in front of them for light. 
It always made me mad, that they could See well enough to do that stuff without magnification!.  ....And I used to wonder how many brilliant engravers had their working life cut short by not being able to see well enough anymore.

Richard.

[jerrywh]

 Most of the old Engravers in England and Europe just used a magnifying glass of loop. Some still do today.

[Bill Raby]

   Thanks for the advise. I am pretty new to engraving, but I am not quite a total beginner. I have been using gravers for diamond setting for a few a lot of years. It really is not all that different than engraving. I can take a flat sheet of gold that is 15mm square and pave set 100 diamonds in it that are just just 1mm diameter using just a graver and a drill. I have a lot of time with a microscope and gravers. That stuff is closer to carving than engraving, but it is similar. So I think that I would be capable of doing very good work eventually.

   For now I am using a magnifying visor. It has a light mounted on it which is pretty nice. I think that would be fine for the American longrifles. The engraving style is not terribly detailed. Problem is that a few years ago I got Christmas present. It was a picture book of Holland & Holland rifles. Its been stuck in my head ever since. The work on those is amazing! That is definitely microscope stuff. A lot of that would work on later percussion or European guns. Good chance I would would carve up some modern rifles and revolvers. But I won't talk about that here. I think that sort of work is a few years down the road.

   I like the idea of the vise mounted on a post. A workbench dedicated to engraving would be ideal, but I don't have the room for it. I am trying to figure out how I can set it up and be able to break it down and put it all away when I am not using it. Of course there is plenty of space for a great permanent setup in the dining room. That idea got the big old stink eye!

   Microscope can wait a while. It will be a while before I get to the point where I have the ability to do anything that needs one. I am all out of money now anyway and a good microscope can get pretty expensive. The one I used for jewelry work was a high end surgical microscope that was in the new Mercedes price range. That thing sure was nice! It all works a bit different when you are spending your own money.

[Robby]

Hammer, chisels and an Optivisor here, I spend much more time in composition than the actual execution.
Robby

[Pukka Bundook]

Bill,

You mentioned Holland & Holland;
If newer stuff, it may well be Ken Hunt's engraving.

When I stayed with the late Ron Ehlert a few days in 2003, he had his engraving ball set on a bench and had a binocular set-up to look through. This interfered a bit with his working tools, so had his chaising hammer made with a bent shaft, so he could work from the back...or around/ behind  the binocular set-up.
He had a Dixon round -action there that needed freshing up, and looking through his binocular set-up, the engraving looked "quite rough" but to the naked eye was a real joy to behold.
A pal of Ron's turned up, and he showed him the engraving through the binocular, "That looks half assed rough!!" he said.
I determined at that time, If you can't see it, you can't cut it!.

So yes, if you wish to do fine work, get the magnification and set up right.
It sounds like you will have the control of gravers pretty much figured already.  Good luck and please keep us up to date on this.

Best regards,
Richard.

[kutter]

I wouldn't bother with the microscope just starting out.
I don't have one after 47yrs doing this, the last 30 full time.

An optivisor,,I use the #10 lens (5X I think)
Good lighting that suits YOU. Everyone will have their idea of what's the best. It may not suit you. Try different stuff and you
will settle on something or combination of things that work comfortably for you.
I use nothing more than a 2 tube 'office desk' florescent lamp on it;s articulated arm(s) right over the work.
Higher above me are two, double tube 48" 'shop' lights. Everything has 'Cool White' bulbs in them.

No incandescent, no LED, I am very comfortable with this. Many will tell you that you can't exist w/o some form of light other than florescent. But it just depends on the person.  I don't like natural daylight to work under either.

A home-made vise made with a base from a cut down bowling ball. Weighted heavily as carved out and filled with epoxy and lead shot mix. Sit's in a kick wheel set up, all home made 35 yrs ago when I moved to my present loc.
 
I do have a separate standing vise post w/o a vise. I simply take the vise from the above bench and place it atop the post and use it for work while I stand and engrave. I use that for work on bbls, a M/L that needs some work w/o disassembly,,things like that.
Standing and engraving is tough on my back so I avoid that type of work. Some engravers work like that all the time.

I do use a power hone. I learned to sharpen by hand with just a plain stone. I gave in to a power set up w/it's diamond plates when I started to use carbide gravers for those miserable Winchester 21's in the mid 90's.  A GRS item with their tool holder. I use Lindseys point style but not their templates. Just set the holder for my own desires.
I like to engrave & not be a professional tool sharpener and fuss over such stuff all day.

I use a Lindsey air powered graver now. Had to switch from hammer & chisel after 35yrs in when a couple accidents and falls left me unable to hold both items and hit one with the other.
Thought I was done, I really did, but the Lindsey saved me from tossing in the towel,,which many had told me was the only option left.
I came too far and put too many hours into this gig to just give it all up and sit there.

Engraving bench is so cluttered with stuff, there's hardly room to place anything down. But that seems to be the way I work.
I do a lot of other work on the same bench like small repair, assembly/disassembly, some stock work, checkering, ect. So tools of all sorts take up room and I have no real place for any of them other than the appropriate pile where they're supposed to be.

What ever you are comfortable with and get results,,that's what counts.

[Pukka Bundook]

Kutter,

Your engraving will be light years ahead of mine,...........but at least I Can say my bench must look like yours!

Cheers,

Richard.

[moodyholler]

I would to ask as a beginner. To start out on signatures and borders on muzzleloader, what graver do you recommend? Thank you moodyholler

[rich pierce]

Square, 90 degrees.  Of course the cutting edge is one of the corners, not a flat.

[moodyholler]

What sizes? Thanks! moodyholler

[deepcreekdale]

What sizes? Thanks! moodyholler

I use a number 5, which is generally the largest you can get if you do not make your own. (easy to do). You might wish to get a few sizes to see which you prefer.