American or British fowler?

[Benp]

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This is a gun I've had for about 30 years. I was told it was a fowler from the Shenandoah valley area and was an American gun fabricated with English parts. Not sure why he said this, vaguely remember something about the type of wood. The wrist has an old repair using brass tacks. The front blade sight appears to be a clipped coin which I've not seen before.

Would appreciate any comments and have following questions:

Pre or post Revolutionary War?
Do tacks indicate Indian use or just a method of repair?
American made?
Any significance to iron ramrod or clipped coin sight?

[rich pierce]

So it is most likely an American British style fowler. There are many illustrated in the book Flintlock Fowlers by Grinslade.  It has been modified for militia use (shortened stock at muzzle and iron rod).

The lock looks 1770-1790 to me.  That’s how I’d date the gun, which is a beauty.

[Benp]

Thanks, forgot to mention its 61" long and app. .63 caliber.

[Majorjoel]

  I am currently building a Germanic short rifle and find it amazing to see this side plate on an original gun!   

[rich pierce]

You use magnification to inlet that sideplate, Joel?

[Benp]

Beautiful work, if not from an original gun, where did you get the design?

[Majorjoel]

Heck Rich, if you use magnification to study the picture you'll see I must have forgotten my regular spectacles when I was cutting that thing in!

Benp, I bought this side plate at the 2010 CLA show in Lexington KY. I was told it had been in the parts bin from the then recently deceased David Dodds estate. David was a fantastic builder and had excuisite tastes in his choices for gun furniture.

I thought the plate to be very unique and in all my years of study have never seen another like it!

Until now!

[smart dog]

Hi Majorjoel,
That sideplate is actually English from the 1770-1780s.  Neal and Back have a photo of an example in their book "Great British Gunmakers 1740-1790".  You can also buy a similar plate from The Rifle Shoppe.  It is part of their Ketland fowler parts set.  With respect to the OP's gun, it would be nice if Joe Puleo would chime in.  The barrel proof marks are either Birmingham proofs after 1813 or they are earlier (1770-1780s) private Tower proofs.  I have trouble telling the difference and could really use an education from Joe.  The hardware looks English from the 1770-1780s.  It appears the lock says Ketland & Co.  I would be interested to know if the flintcock is pulled back if a "W" is revealed in front of Ketland. My guess is the lock is from the late 18th century or early 19th, the period Ketland sold locks marked W. Ketland & Co. The muzzlecap and iron rammer suggest the gun had a military application, perhaps with a militia unit. The stock looks to be figured maple and is of English styling.  I suspect the gun was made at the end of the 18th century and likely has no Rev War connection.  I do think it is an American restock of older British parts but the maker was very familiar with British styling. That may suggest the maker was located near a major population center where British imports likely were sold.

dave 

[Mike Brooks]

I agree with smart dog only I think it was also stocked in England.....I know it's curly maple, but it's so "british" I doubt it was made here.

[Monty59]

Hello, I agree !  I know such sideplates normal only from english made guns.

Monty

[Pukka Bundook]

Smart Dog,

Was this sideplate on a gun by Verncombe of Bristol?  (GBG) I don't have my book real handy.  Also a sideplate by Joseph Alley comes to mind. (Irish)
Yes English parts and a trade lock by what I can see.
Mike,
There are references to  English gunmakers heading to "the Colonies" so I think with the wood and such, (plainer build) that it was made in the States, but by someone who 'knew his onions" as they say!  Very attractive gun, Ben!

By what I can see, the proofs are Birmingham post 1813.
FWIW, Most barrels marked "London" aren't!   :-)

[Mike Brooks]

There's a lot of documentation for American lumber exported to England. Some of it had to end up in the gun trade.

[smart dog]

Hi Richard,
Yes, Verncombe of Bristol. Mike Brooks likely is correct that maple wood from America could find its way into the British gun trade. However, there were also quite a few excellent American gun makers who clearly understood British styling. When I was doing research for my recent militia musket project, I was hoping to find examples of colonial manufacture that closely resembled the Brown Bess.  I did not have to search very hard for very good examples.  In the process I also examined fowlers that were modified for military use.  Some were very good examples of British styling in almost all details.  Watkeys of New York, Annelly of New York and Trenton, NJ, Nicholson of Philadelphia, and Doud and Norton of Goshen, CT.  Any of those makers could have made the gun we are discussing.  Goshen was a gun making center that deserves a lot more research given the number of makers working there including the Hills family. 

dave       

[Pukka Bundook]

Thanks for verifying the sideplate, Smart Dog.  Saw one of his guns for sale a couple f years ago.   No name on outside of lock and that gave it away!

Mike,
Yes, a lot of wood went East from the States, but I can say I have never (a word I normally avoid!) seen an English gun made with curly maple.  Birds eye, yes, but not striped like this.

Nothing against the wood in ant way, just not seen it back home on guns.  (Maybe I wans't looking hard enough!)

[Benp]

I pulled the flintcock back and checked and it's marked just Ketland and Co.

[smart dog]

Hi,
That may mean the lock was made between 1785 and about 1800. We really need Joe Puleo here.

dave

[Feltwad]

For what I can make out from the image the barrel is English and also parts of the lock  the fore sight and the stock  along with the butt plate and the side plate are not maybe repro castings
Feltwad

[Mike Brooks]

For what I can make out from the image the barrel is English and also parts of the lock  the fore sight and the stock  along with the butt plate and the side plate are not maybe repro castings
Feltwad

Interesting..... how did you come to that conclusion?

[JV Puleo]

The barrel has Ordnance private proofs... made before the end of 1804
If the lock says "W. Ketland & Co." it was made after 1800
If it says "T. Ketland" or just "Ketland" it could be as early as 1792. Very few K guns arrived here before the signing of the Jay Treaty and the re-establishment of commercial relations with the US. Also, it wasn't until 1792 that the Privy council allowed the export of "military stores" (including all firearms) to America.

It could be an American-made stock but, if so, someone managed to get the "B'ham trade" style perfect. Personally, I think it was stocked there with wood imported from the US. With that in mind, I have at least 1 citation from the Liverpool shipping news recording the arrival of "maple gun stocks" consigned to Thomas Ketland.

The side plate is fairly common and is also seen on K pistols. It probably dates 1792-1800 or there about. It is usually seen on the earliest K imported guns. The style itself is somewhat older but mass-market provincial guns were usually made in styles that were slightly old fashioned by "London" standards. In fact, comparison to high end London guns is often misleading.

[Feltwad]

Enclosed are a pair of Ketland &Co Flint Locks date approx. 1780-1800
Feltwad