Details on a Fainot patchbox

[SingleMalt]

My compliments to you, Rich for pulling this off. 

[BOB HILL]

Rich, as usual, you've done a great job on this on this excellent  piece. Thanks for taking us alone. Happy New Year everyone.
Bob

[gumboman]

Great job Rich. As I understand it, the lid is separate from the surround. Which step came first? Patch box cavity, lid and hinge assembly or surround? I have a side opening patch box of Dickert style and need to know the correct steps to installation. I am not sure whether to install the surround first and then the lid and hinge or vice versa. It looks like a very difficult box to install correctly and you did a beautiful job.

Do you have pictures of the installation steps that you can post?

[rich pierce]

Are you asking about inletting steps? I think I covered construction steps.

Inletting a complete assembly is tough. I inletted the surround and lid as one. Hardest part is conforming 1/16” thick brass to the stock. I confess filling and re- drilling screw holes because as I inletted it, it spread out some. My rule is to make it very slightly more curved than the stock and it will spread out a tiny bit during inletting. If your inlet area is flat ignore that. Mine required a lot of “curve” adjustment particularly up in the head where it’s getting into the wrist.

So here was my procedure:

Drill screw holes in surround.
Lay on stock and drill hole into the stock for top screw and 2 side screws. Blacken the hinge. Screw the patchbox down. Tap it all around.
Scribe in outline and remove box and inlet hinge and all around the edge.
Remove some background.
Blacken, screw down, tappity tap, inlet edges more, remove more background.

Repeat and realize the box is spreading and screw holes are getting a bad angle.
Fill and re-drill screw holes. Drill remaining holes down at the base.

Outline and chisel the patchbox cavity.

Install catch spring and inlet that.

I left the surround long at the rear than trimmed it after inletting was done.

Install catch on lid and opener spring.

Adjust catch and release till it works.

Start filing everything to smooth contour then polish to 320.

Next I will make a bondo covered jig for engraving the box.

[t.caster]

I applaud you for trying something quite different....and succeeding! Nice workmanship!

[gumboman]

Thanks for the detailed steps. That is exactly what I was asking about. Your description will be very helpful. Well done.

In looking at the pictures again, I see that the hinge is attached to the bottom of the surround and now I understand how the box, lid and hinge are inletted as an assembly. The Dickert hinge I have is two separate parts and they are designed to be installed separately. There is a hinge and lid assembly and a surround assembly. The hinge and lid assembly is designed to so that the hinge is installed in the patch box cavity against a sidewall. Stated another way, the hinge is 90 degrees perpendicular to the lid when lid is closed and screwed to the side of the cavity. I am told by the maker of the hinge to install the surround first then the lid and hinge. But with that approach I see a big challenge in trying to screw the lid in the correct precise place due to having to install the screws in a confined space and at right angles. Seems to me I would have to bend a screwdriver to 90 degrees in order to drive the screws in. At this point I have soldered the lid and hinge to the surround and intend to install as one unit, That hinge in the cavity is perplexing.

Nice job on your effort.

[rich pierce]

Gumbo, this sounds like the side-opening, daisy-headed box.  If the hinge is separate my approach would be to cut the cavity and install the hinge and lid, then inlet the surround.  Treat it like a simple side opening box at first.  Those screws holding the hinge in are under very low stress as the stress is at 90 degrees to the screw.

When I last did a side-opening Bucks County box, I burned in the hinge screw pilot holes using a bent rod filed to diameter and heated red hot. Practice on a scrap piece of maple and expect any housemates to ask if you’ve set the house on fire (again).

Then I used a right angle screwdriver to seat the screws.  They are hard to find but dome-head screws are a nice touch here.  No countersink.  But round-headed, countersink style screw heads are fine.

[rich pierce]

Back at it, prepping for my next Fainot build which will be based on the rifle that is here in our excellent library.  That rifle has the earliest design Fainot box seen yet. The hinge is separate from the lid and is riveted to it like all Fainot boxes but the hinge has one long knuckle and when we look inside we see the hinge pin is exposed, not completely encased by knuckles.






Ok so today we are just making that long rolled knuckle.  There are as many hinge making techniques as there are builders I guess. I make 2 right angle bends forming a U shape, with the distance between bends hopefully the circumference of the hinge pin.







I use a wide masonry chisel that I have ground to a rounded edge to start the bend or trough for the hinge pin.  Works great.  Then cinch it up with the vise and then beat on it until it all lays flat.















I made 2 of these today, one from stock about 0.033” and another from 0.040 stock.  Then I tediously removed the sheet stock between the tabs until I had the rolled one piece long knuckle with the hinge pin at least partly exposed beneath.  No idea why Fainot did it this way. He changed in later builds to multi-knuckle hinges completely encasing the hinge pin.





Next I will make the lid and rivet it.  Same as last time, so this is the end of the show until I finish this box.

[Marcruger]

"Yes, I'd like to see it as well. You fellows have certainly been making some interesting guns lately...."

Look who's talking Mr. Brooks!   :-) 

[flehto]

Rich......do you take orders for side opening Pboxes? Would like you to make some Bucks County side openers which are very simple compared to what you're making. Just kidding, but if more Fainot guns are in your future, you should presently  be making 3 ....or are you?  Interesting post showing your skillful  abilities......Fred

[n stephenson]

Rich, I like this post a lot. Not only are you giving "play by play" on an unusual patchbox design , but you are constantly posting historical reference to go along with it. I like your approach. I have always thought that those Fainot guns were neat!  And, look forward to seeing your rendition!      Thanks Nate

[rich pierce]

Fred, I’m finishing one Fainot, starting a second, then will do a third or possibly tackle a guess at the Leyendecker rifle (Eric Kettenburg has the side opening patchbox).

I like the early side openers. I’d have to charge about $300 for a Fainot box. Unless I go to laser cut kits I’d put together.

[Curtis]

Looking good Rich, truly the labor of love!

Curtis

[Jeff Stewart]

Excellent work and a truly interesting post, Rich.  You'd be seriously undercharging for your work if you made those at only $300.  Thanks for sharing and educating us.

[rich pierce]

Thx, Jeff. A scroll saw would sure speed the process of cutting the surround. 1/26” brass is tough sledding with a jeweled saw.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Rich this is really an excellent expose of the process involved in a box such as this.  I love it and the box looks awesome.

The Leyendecker or #42 type is a piece of cake after this - nothing more than rolling some hinges/tubes and attaching to a piece of cast brass.  The biggest pain in the a** with such side opening boxes is piloting and subsequently attaching the screws for the stock portion of the hinge to the inside of the box mortise.  It's much easier if you make a dogleg/bent screwdriver for that kind of thing.

[rich pierce]

Eric, the Leyendecker is on my “to build” list and I’m surprised and a little intimidated that nobody has yet dared to build a rifle around that box SFAIK.  I find the folksy engraving on the Leyendecker box a little reminiscent of the Fainot boxes.

I’m torn between Antes architecture, #42/Deschler architecture, and other possibilities for the Leyendecker build.  Step wrist or not is the question.  I might even think about marrying the Leyendecker box to the architecture and carving of the “Ugly Bird Head Patchbox Rifle” RCA 84.

Here is the Fainot box, engraved.