Author Topic: Patchbox inletting question  (Read 5159 times)

Offline Brian Jordan

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Patchbox inletting question
« on: February 17, 2018, 04:38:44 AM »
I'm preparing to inlet my first patch box. I still have all the prep work to do to the brass yet. I plan to file the draft on the brass and screw it to stock and begin my inletting from that point. My question is How do you go about trimming the excess material to make a seamless fit to the butt plate? My thoughts are to remove the butt plate and scribe the underside of the patch box. Is this the correct approach?

Elizabeth, PA

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Offline Chowmi

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Re: Patchbox inletting question
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2018, 04:43:38 AM »
I have only done one patchbox like yours, so take this for what it is worth!

I would inlet it with the butt plate off first. Then you can trim it close, but leave some extra. Then, you will need to file a corresponding notch in the edge of the butt plate. You can remove the patch box and use the inlet as your guide for this to get it close, and then trial and error.
Finally, you can file off the slight extra extension you have on the patch box flush with the butt plate.

Does that make sense? 

Norm.
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Patchbox inletting question
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2018, 04:54:52 AM »
I agree but I would cut all but 1/4” extra off right now.  It’s going to snag on everything.

Conforming the patchbox to the contour of the stock is the next step before thinking about draft or inletting, for me.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Brian Jordan

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Re: Patchbox inletting question
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2018, 05:27:23 PM »
Rich that is what I planned was getting things bent to shape. I hope to get started on this soon. Thanks!
Elizabeth, PA

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Offline Brian Jordan

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Re: Patchbox inletting question
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2018, 10:04:57 PM »
I agree but I would cut all but 1/4” extra off right now.  It’s going to snag on everything.

Conforming the patchbox to the contour of the stock is the next step before thinking about draft or inletting, for me.

Rich what advice would you offer to bend / conform the brass to the stock? My thoughts are to lay the brass on a bag of lead shot and use a soft mallet till I get the curve to match. I really don't have to move things much, but am concerned about the hinge binding.
Elizabeth, PA

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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Patchbox inletting question
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2018, 02:38:47 AM »
I took a piece of oak firewood and used a gouge then rasps to make a sort of “negative” of the buttstock.  I then used a couple round wooden mallets to pound the annealed box into the form.  If I had an exposed hinge I’d have chiseled a trough to protect that.

I re-shape the chunk of wood from time to time to fit various projects.  The other side is convex.




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Offline Kingsburyarms

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Re: Patchbox inletting question
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2018, 03:30:23 AM »
I don't know if these will help, but when I aligned the patch box, I trimmed the excess down to a 1/4 inch and started the inlet, when I finished the inlet and screwed the patch box in to the stock, I trimmed to about 1/64th in front of the (already) fit butt plate.  Remember the lid goes over the butt plate, the side are inletted and go against the butt plate. fit the butt plate to the patch box, not the other way around, I just filed a little at a time at the brass patch box sides until the butt plate fit snug. I left the hinged area open until I soldered the end on, then I filed that as well. Don't forget to file a notch in the butt plate for the lid - slow and one or two small corrections at a time, it will fit right in.

Maybe the pictures will assist a little:













After engraving:





« Last Edit: March 01, 2018, 03:37:25 AM by Kingsburyarms »

Offline davebozell

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Re: Patchbox inletting question
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2018, 03:58:23 AM »
When I bent my last patchbox, I took piece of pine about 2" thick, 4" wide, and 2" long.  I drew a little more curve than I needed on the end grain.  (Trying to take spring back into account.). Then I cut this out on a bandsaw.  I sandwiched the patchbox between the two curved blocks and placed them in my vise.  I was able to slowly bend the patchbox to the shape I needed.  I was even able to put a little bend in the hinge area with this method.  The short blocks allowed me to vary the bend along the length of the patchbox.  I made up several of these blocks with various curves to trial until I got the bend I was looking for.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2018, 02:53:10 AM by davebozell »

Offline Gaeckle

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Re: Patchbox inletting question
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2018, 08:54:02 AM »
When I install a patchbox, the first thing I do is to place the box on the stock in the position that I think looks best, then I put a witness mark on the stock and generally outline the box with a light pencil mark. Then I remove the lid from the finial and then make the finial dead soft and inlet the finial. You will find that if the brass is dead soft you can easily bend the curve into the finial by finger pressure or by using an adjustable wrench and gently bend from the center of the finial out. I will use screws placed in the appropriate position to hold down the finial to make sure the finial doesn't wander all over the stock. I inlet the hinge area first, then work my way up. Once the finial is inlet, I attach the lid and proceed to inlet that as well. I leave the buttplat on untill the lid inlet is just a small distance from the buttplate, then I drop the plate and finish off the inlet of the lid. Once I am satisfied that the lid is where I want it, I use a sharp pointed scribe to scratch the under side of the lid, that determines where I need to trim it off at. When I cut the the lid I do not cut on the line, but just leave the line, this allows for slight hand filling to make the fit as best as I can. In some situations I leave the lid flush with the plate and in others I inlett the lid into the butplate and that I determine well in advance.

Oddly enough, the extra brass on the lid and side plates makes a great way the hold the lid when you are cutting for a final fit, just clamp it in a vise if using a hacksaw.

When inletting the finial, I use a very small piece of wood, rectangular in shape, to tap on the finial with a small ball pean hammer, I gently tap on this little block of wood so as not to dent the dead soft brass.

Offline moleeyes36

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Re: Patchbox inletting question
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2018, 03:59:57 PM »
When I bent my last patchbox, I took piece of pine about 2" thick, 4" wide, and 2" long.  I drew a little more curve than I needed on the end grain.  (Trying to take spring back into account.). Then I cut this out on a bandsaw.  I sandwiched the patchbox between the two curved blocks and placed them in my vise.  I was able to slowly bend the patchbox to the shape I needed.  I was even able to put a little bend in the hinge area with this method.  The short blocks allowed me to vary the bend along the length of the patchbox.  I made up several of these blocks cvs until I got the bend I was looking for.

That is a slick approach, I'm going to have to try that.

Mole Eyes
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Offline flehto

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Re: Patchbox inletting question
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2018, 05:35:04 PM »
First off....is the brass finial annealed , if not the brass will spring back and forming will be more difficult. Locate the finial and chisel clearance for the hinge and then use the center screw to hold the finial to the stock. I don't use the 2 screws on both sides of the hinge to hold the finial against the stock....these holes will misalign after the finial is inlet. Pencil  the daisy to reposition the finial if it moves when forming.

After the finial is formed to the stock, the backdraft is filed...perhaps some do it before forming, but I can't guess that good.  The finial is screwed to the stock and I use an Xacto knife to outline the filnial . A piece of tape applied across   the hinge helps to hold the finial in place.

After the finial is inletted and screwed down using the 3 screws, the lid is attached,  outlined and inletted. I then cut the cavity in , but it could be done later.  As the lid is inletted, the recess in the Bplate is filed in.

Finally the side plates are screwed down using all the screws and then they're outlined and inletted. You may want to infringe on the lid space a bit to achieve a nice fit between the lid and side plates....the edges of the side plates are easy to file.

W/ everything in place, scribe the undersides of the side plates  and saw off the excess, but the final fitting of the ends will be done in conjunction w/ the Bplate.

I've always liked installing Pboxes mainly because it's fairly easy work.....Fred


Offline StevenV

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Re: Patchbox inletting question
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2018, 08:37:50 PM »
A few questions have been brought up with this thread. Some of the responses are leading me to believe that the finial/lid hinges are cut in after in-letting to stock ,is this how its done? Would you not bend hinge to contour of stock , cut hinges in  and then inlet box into stock?
For those who have had the opportunity to handle/study originals what is the norm for patch box shape, flat or fit to the stock contour?
Finally the most interesting one when cutting hinge with a contoured box , how are they cut? Have read perpendicular to the stock. This would mean the center hinges would be straight down the ones on the edges would be angled. Anybody with experience cut hinges on curved boxes would be interested how. I attached two pics to help with questions.
           Thanks once again     StevenV


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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Patchbox inletting question
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2018, 02:06:18 AM »
Here's what I do. Anneal the box. Drill your screw holes. Position on the stock and figure out where your hinge knuckles are going to be and mark that precisely. Dig a ditch for the knuckles then screw down your box finial. Draw a line around it with pencil then inlet. Every time you refit as you're inletting screw it down to get your print. Once it's about where you want it file the wood and the box all down flush together. I have to do one in the next day or two, maybe I ought to snap a couple pics.
 I do mine about like flehto does with some minor differences.
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Offline flehto

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Re: Patchbox inletting question
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2018, 05:51:09 PM »
Some lid form blocks were made and the hinge is just about straight as shown.....use these form blocks once in awhile but also use a curved hinge......Fred




Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Patchbox inletting question
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2018, 06:20:05 PM »
Sorry Fred, I've been told here that a curved hinge is physically impossible..... Although I have seen many curved hinges on antiques and I also curve the hinges on the boxes I make.
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Offline flehto

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Re: Patchbox inletting question
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2018, 07:34:06 PM »
Your building experience and knowledge holds sway w/ me..... but I do both straight and curved hinges and on the Bucks County LRs, all have a long, straight hinge.

The predominance of curved hinges on originals is "for real" and on most of my builds, the hinge is curved.....and I don't know if there are straight hinges on some originals. My info came from Buchele on the straight hinges and I copied his form blocks...did this early on and to this day don't know how PC he was. .....Fred


Offline Chowmi

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Re: Patchbox inletting question
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2018, 08:24:48 PM »
Sorry Fred, I've been told here that a curved hinge is physically impossible..... Although I have seen many curved hinges on antiques and I also curve the hinges on the boxes I make.

Ha Ha!
I remember that!  I got told the same thing.  Slight bend seems to be okay.

Norm
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Patchbox inletting question
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2018, 06:31:08 AM »
I didn't know that either!  Here I've been making 'em that way all along, and didn't know it was impossible.  See what happens when you have to learn it all by yourself?
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Offline davec2

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Re: Patchbox inletting question
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2018, 07:39:29 AM »
I am sure that a slightly curved hinge can be made to work (obviously) as long as the hinge pin and knuckle ID have enough "wiggle" room and the hinge is not too long.  However, if you want to see how a tight, longer hinge would work in a curved configuration, try putting a slight bend in a length of piano hinge and let me know how it operates.
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Patchbox inletting question
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2018, 05:16:35 PM »
Saw an original by Mauger last weekend that had a radically curved hinge that seems to have survived the test of time quite well.
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Offline Brian Jordan

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Re: Patchbox inletting question
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2018, 04:32:34 PM »
Thanks for all the advice and information! I'm sure I will have more questions as I progress.
Elizabeth, PA

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Let's Go Brandon!

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Patchbox inletting question
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2018, 11:05:52 PM »
Buchele's book describes relieving the inside of the knuckles very well.  This allows a curved hinge to function without binding.
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Patchbox inletting question
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2018, 12:18:10 AM »
Buchele's book describes relieving the inside of the knuckles very well.  This allows a curved hinge to function without binding.
BINGO!
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Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Patchbox inletting question
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2018, 05:45:46 PM »
Relieving the knuckles isn't the real solution in my view.  The real problem is trying to make the curve on the box lid match the finial when rotated 90 degrees.  Think about it...

Yes, in practice you can get away with a bit of curve on the hinge.  There are tricks which help such as concentrating more of the bend on the outer edges of the hinge and having the lid knuckles towards the inside of the hinge where it is somewhat straighter.  You can also file a bit of curve on the outside of hinge surface.  All these things combined with the pin and hinge being somewhat flexible and having a touch of wiggle room allows it to work.

Jim