Author Topic: NC pictures  (Read 7264 times)

long carabine

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NC pictures
« on: May 11, 2009, 02:21:43 AM »
 Does anyone have any pictures of a early NC rifle? I am building one from PRS NC kit and have not started it yet and I would need some ideas on how there styled. I like the Patriot Rifle but do not want to copy it. Tim

Sean

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Re: NC pictures
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2009, 04:09:17 AM »
Look in the virtual museum.  It really doesn't get much better than that.

Sean

Offline RobertS

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Re: NC pictures
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2009, 03:26:36 PM »
I am not sure, but I'm thinking the rifle on the contemporary makers site by John Bevins may be a NC style rifle.      http://www.contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/

I'm no authority, but it is a beautiful piece, and I think has features that would classify it as NC. 

Offline David Rase

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Re: NC pictures
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2009, 04:01:57 PM »
John Bivins "Longrifles of North Carolina" published by George Shumway would be another source for you.
DMR
« Last Edit: May 11, 2009, 10:21:21 PM by David Rase »

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: NC pictures
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2009, 08:47:08 PM »
I don't have my copy in front of me right now but I believe Steel Canvas has at least one Volger rifle in it. Also check the ALR virtual library.
Dennis
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Offline Clowdis

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Re: NC pictures
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2009, 09:26:14 PM »
lc,
How early are you talking about? An early NC rifle would probably be a little later manufacture than an early Lancaster for instance.

Sam Everly

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Re: NC pictures
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2009, 02:37:32 AM »
When you say North Carolina rifle, that covers a big area . Also early ?? how early, mid or late 1700'S, plain or fancy.  Give us a little more info and we might be able to help some more.

long carabine

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Re: NC pictures
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2009, 01:32:50 PM »
1750's to 1770's bought a PRS NC kit and I would like to build it to a early style. This is new to me. Tim

Offline Clowdis

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Re: NC pictures
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2009, 04:25:54 PM »
1750's to 1770's bought a PRS NC kit and I would like to build it to a early style. This is new to me. Tim

I'm not sure if I know of a NC rifle from that time period that is in print anywhere. I'll have to look around. I think most of the rifles in Bivens book are a little later.

Offline G-Man

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Re: NC pictures
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2009, 05:17:33 PM »
Hi Tim - this is sort of long, but bear with me...

Take at look at some of the North Carolina rifles in the ALR virtual museum.  Also, take a look at Mel Hankla's "American Historic Services" website.  That shows a few NC rifles made around 1800-1820 as well as some Rev. War era rifles that appear to at least be southern, if not from North Carolina.  There are also features on the House Brothers raffle gun and on Hershel and Frank House.  When you look through all these you will see where Hershel and Frank got some of their influences as well as their artistic interpretation, which is what Frank's "Patriot" rifle really was.

It looks like Pecatonica's kit is a real nice stock profile, but is based on a 1790s-1820 era rifle based on the lines and the butt width.  There is thought by some that on southern guns in general, slightly narrower butts were becoming popular a bit earlier than on Pennsylvania guns, but not in the pre-Rev War period.

Not sure which lock you went with - looks like they offer Durs Egg or Siler inlet.  The Siler would be an earlier style lock than the Durs Egg but both were around by the 1790s.

To my knowledge no known documented North Carolina-made rifles from the 1750-1780 period have come to light yet.  That is, no signed rifles by makers whom we have records of working in North Carolina in the 1750-1780 period, that appear to clearly date from that timeframe.  However, there are a few unsigned pieces that have family histories and at least a possibility of being made in North Carolina - Sam Everly posted some photos of a plain rifle with a history of being used in western North Carolina during the frontier era  - as I recall, it was sort of a "smooth rifle" and a simple utilitarian working gun.

We do know that rifles were being made in North Carolina before and during the Revolution - the Moravians at Salem and nearby settlements, the Moore and Kennedy families, Etc.  Sadly, we don't have signed pieces from these makers in that timeframe.  Hypothetically, you can suppose that pieces made by the Moravian smiths would have had strong German influences similar to the Moravian gunmakers' work in Pennsylvania during that timeframe - wide butts, stepped wrists, Germanic style locks (or not given that the routes of trade were different in the south), and maybe German influenced hardware.  There has been discussion among some about the possibility that some of the pieces attributed to Christians Spring might have actually been made in Moravian North Carolina - if you do a search of the archives about "RCA 42" you will find a ton of stuff.

The "Patriot" rifle was a concept piece that Frank House came up with.  In the Woodbury (contemporary) style that the House brothers developed, it is a blend of influences from a number of early rifles believed to be southern, and a bit of devolved features that crop up on later iron and brass mounted southern pieces.  The current House Brothers raffle gun is another example of this, as is the rifle featured in last month's Muzzle Blasts.  Frank has made a number of similar pieces that he sometimes loosely refers to as "Watauga" style rifles, since they incorporate features that crop up on some surviving pieces that have ties to pioneers in the area near SW Virginia, Western North Carolina, and East Tennessee and show the influences of features from several nearby areas.  Features such as the captured lid patchboxes are examples of this style.  Hypothetically, you might have seen a similar rifle made in North Carolina during the period, but the Patriot rifle was really Frank's artistic vision of a piece that could have been made in that time and place, rather than a copy of a documented piece.

So..........that still does not answer your question, but if it were me, I'd make something akin to an 1800-1810 period North Carolina rifle with that stock.  They were some of most sleek, slender graceful longrifles I've seen.  If you did not get the hardware with the kit, I'd consider maybe using some different hardware for it.

Good luck!

Guy
« Last Edit: May 12, 2009, 05:39:06 PM by Guy Montfort »

Offline rich pierce

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Re: NC pictures
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2009, 06:18:15 PM »
Good reply.  That pretty much sums it up.  We're working on mysteries without many clues.  Best we can do in some cases is "coulda been".

If you use all early parts and early styling (full buttstock, wide and tall, maybe a stepped wrist as Guy mentioned) that's a good start.  Regardless of location, I'd want a 2" wide x 5" tall buttplate for a pre-Revolutionary War gun and an early lock.  Chambers round face, early Ketland, Early Germanic, Davis round-face, and the new Davis early Germanic lock are all good choices for the period (there are other good choices too).  Swamped barrel at least 1" wide at the breech, .50 caliber or larger (to keep weight down).  Sliding wooden patchbox or a simple 2 piece hinged brass box.  The less decoration you add in carving and engraving, the more generic a rifle is.

Then only you can decide if you want to use motifs (architectural details and decorative designs) that occur on later rifles and "early them up".  This is a fun and creative exercise and everybody enjoys it as long as it's acknowledged as fantasy.

When we get into real early Pennsylvania rifles, the roots look pretty different from the branches.  As an exercise, we could imagine only knowing about 1780's-1800 Lehigh rifles and nothing earlier, and using them as the basis for earlier guns made in the region.  Could any of us come close to an early Oerter that way, never having seen or heard of one? Or  #42 or the Marshall gun?  It's possible to see the transitions when we have examples to work with.  When nothing is there as in  consensus authenticated early NC rifles, it's just "give it your best shot" and hope something shows up someday.

Andover, Vermont

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: NC pictures
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2009, 02:00:04 AM »
Quote
Frank has made a number of similar pieces that he sometimes loosely refers to as "Watauga" style rifles, since they incorporate features that crop up on some surviving pieces that have ties to pioneers in the area near SW Virginia, Western North Carolina, and East Tennessee and show the influences of features from several nearby areas.
Guy,
Do you know any online photos of this style? I would be interested in seeing one of them.
Dennis
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline G-Man

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Re: NC pictures
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2009, 02:29:52 AM »
Hi Dennis - this iron mounted one on Mel's website is a good example, as is the one featured in Muzzle Blasts last month (brass mounted).  They incorporate a lot of the feel of the Jacob Young and Thomas Simpson rifles, but also some of the earlier captured-lid box rifles that Wallace has shown in his articles, with more of a 1780 style architecture, etc. for an earlier looking gun. 

They are really neat pieces - the one in Muzzle Blasts had an elaborate beaded sling that Lally made for it, inspired by a strap that belonged to William Whitley.

http://www.kentuckylongrifles.com/html/frank_house.html

Guy

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: NC pictures
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2009, 04:55:42 PM »
Thanks Guy, I really like that patch box.
Dennis
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Sam Everly

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Re: NC pictures
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2009, 05:47:32 AM »
I did a repair on a rifle many years ago from the Bryan family. I think it was said to have been made by Boones uncle. It would be from around the late 1770's to 1790. This is what i can remember about the rifle , i am trying to locate the owner to get some pics of it . The rifle was plain , it had a butt about 1 3/4 wide and around 5 inches tall . The barrel was about 45 inches long . I replaced a lock bolt that was missing but i can't recall the lock at all . I think it looked somthing like a siler. I will try to find out some more, on the owners location after he moved . The gun would have been made on the Yadkin river around the Mocksville area . That is where Boones fathers land was and his wifes family also .           

Offline Clowdis

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Re: NC pictures
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2009, 09:27:08 PM »
Today I did see photos of a beautiful longrifle attributed to Valentine Beck and was probably made in Bethania prior to the Rev War. Side opening patchbox and relief carving etc. very similar to Pa. made longrifles of the same period. I'd like to post a picture but there is a book in the making that is probably going to press sometime in the next year or so, so I can't post. The book should be great!

Just thought I ought to modify the post a bit and explain that the photographer that is doing most of the photo work for the book is a good friend of mine and I saw the photos at his shop today. I never knew this rifle existed until a few hours ago.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 10:08:20 PM by Clowdis »