Border engraving

[WKevinD]

I am getting very frustrated trying to teach myself basic engraving. I can do a straight even depth line, a curved leaf edge and  have varying degrees of success with shading and crosshatching but the nick and dot escapes me.
I looked thru the older posts like this one started by Mike Brooks  http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=34667.0
and just got more confused and frustrated.
The nick and dot is why I primarily wanted to teach myself to engrave.
Any suggestions on where to go from here?

Kevin

[T*O*F]

A tutorial from one of the best.

http://www.igraver.com/nick_and_round/index.shtml

[Ron Scott]

You might buy yourself a copy of Engraving the Kentucky Rifle with Wallace Gusler. American Pioneer video sells it through Muzzle Loader Mag.

[Mark Elliott]

There are two ways to do nick and dot; the easy way and the hard way.   I have done it both.  For the easy way,  get John Schipper's book.  He shows you how to grind a special graver to cut the nick by pushing the graver into a straight line.   

The other way is to use a flat graver driven by a chisel and is the more traditional way to do it.   I am trying to teach myself how to do it the traditional way.   Mark Silver said that you have to engrave about 20 linear feet of it before you start to get the hang of it.   You can use either a square graver or a flat graver for the nick.  I believe that Wallace Gusler's engraving video shows how to do the traditional method with a flat graver.    I am sure there have been some discussions about the traditional method here on the forums.

For the traditional method,  you hold the flat graver on edge so that the cutting edge is about 45 degrees to the plane of the work surface cutting in and out to form a little triangle.  I have to cut each triangle one at a time.   Once you get the hang of it, you just keep cutting an entire line at a time.   Then you go back and make the nicks.   

Hopefully someone else can point you to an online video.

[jerrywh]

 Respectfully, The above link does not illustrate how to cut a nick and dot border.  A round graver is never used for nick and dot.  It is very hard to explain how to cut one in words alone.  After one learns how it seems simple but learning how is one of the most difficult things to learn.  The best graver to use is a flat graver about 1/16" wide with a 25°  very short heel. the heel about .015 to .010 long. The first thing to do is cut a straight line with a regular square graver. For practice sake you might as well cut about a dozen of them. Because nobody except maybe DaveC2 can cut them the first time and do it well.  It will take some time to get the hang of it.  Now take the flat graver and place the corner of it in the line with the flat graver tilting towards you at the top. Lets go back for a moment.
  It will help a lot if you take a scribe and draw the small triangles along the line that you intend to cut about  3/4 as high as the width of the flat graver you intend to use.  When you make these cuts be sure you are looking at the face of the graver and not looking down over the graver from the back of it. this is very important.  While looking at the face of the graver start at the lower corner of one of the triangles you drew and watch the edge of the graver face. Start you cut and slowly roll the graver away from you following the line of the drawn triangle up and to the right away from you. When the graver has reached the top of the drawn triangle slowly roll it back towards you and follow the line of the triangle back down and towards you. When doing this be sure to keep the graver pointing directly down the previously cut line do not let the corner of the flat get out of the original guide lien you cut.
    I'm sure there will be others here that will tell you different but I never knew a professional engraver that cut them in any other way.
 I do them the same as Lynton McKenzie did .  One should learn to do this upside down and backwards as well.  There will be times when you will need to if you engrave enough guns.  I probably cut at least three hundred of these today and the day before and the day before for the last week alone.  If you learn this you will be able to develop a dozen different patterns from this same technique.
     This can be done with a altered square graver but  it is actually harder to learn in my opinion.  The dots are nothing but a smaller nick done with out the guide line.

[WKevinD]

Thanks, for the information. I have Shippers book and have tried to sharpen the 120 degree point and have now ordered the Gussler engraving DVD.
jerrywh, great description but I just need to see it done so I can start practicing (my 20') correctly. I have been practicing Shippers technique of cutting towards me and find it the most comfortable and accurate being able to see where I am cutting.
Kevin

[jerrywh]

 The reason cutting towards you works so well is because you are looking at the face of the graver.  You can do even better cutting to the side if you look at the face of the graver and not down over the back of it.  Just my opinion but I have done it both ways.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

This is great advice on technique, and I thank you Jerry for sharing your experience.  I used to do nick and dot using the method you described and was frankly surprised to see Mr. Schipper's technique and the results thereof.  I still prefer the rolled chisel technique's results, and will continue to practice it.

[Craig Wilcox]

WOW!  Learning so very much from all of you!

The link was a lot of fun to read and think on.  Lot of artwork, and a good treatise on copying works of others.

And JerryWH - special thanks. I never thought of having the graver face me!  Makes a whole lot of sense, and I appreciate it.

I have built a host of firearms, but always cartridge guns.  The Herman Rupp design I am making is my first flintlock, and each day I get to learn something new.  I do plan to engrave it, but not as Rupp did - I will be coming up with my own design for both the engraving and the wood carving.

I wonder if Rupp's copyright has expired.....

Craig

[smart dog]

Hi,
Another border to learn is the "thick and thin", which is 2 parallel lines, one thicker than the other. It is a simple but very effective border that often looks more elegant than a nick and dot. You have to cut even parallel lines, which requires a lot of control. Below show thick and thin borders on a swivel breech in progress and completed.

dave

[Daryl]

Lovely work, Dave.