I need some finishing advice, another coat of AQF then stain?

[leoparddog]

Newbee disclaimer: this is my first build.

Yesterday I applied a tannin wash and after it dried, a coat of Jim Kibler's Iron Nitrate and heated it - turned much blacker than I expected. I think its taken me 8 hours to get it knocked back.  The original plan was to apply a coat of LMF Maple stain at this point but I'm not that happy with the way it looks now.  I'm considering whether to apply a second coat of the Iron Nitrate and heat it again to see if I can get some of the figure back. 

I guess the question is, if I applied the Maple stain first and don't like how it turns out, could I put a second coat of Iron Nitrate over the LMF stain and rub it out again?  Or is the right order of process, Iron Nitrate first then stain last?

Thanks

[Joe S.]

Thinking maybe you rubbed it out to much.I had practiced on scraps cutoffs from my blank.My tannin wash was used to whisker,then again,then applied Jim's fortis.Turned black,then put the heat to it it turned chocolate brown.I then rubbed it back,before oil finish.

[leoparddog]

Thanks Joe,
Yes, I probably did rub it back a bit much, but on the first pass through it was such a dark brown.  I was wanting something a bit brighter with red tones and not the dark chocolate brown

[Joe S.]

Mine was a chocolate Brown but a little rub back,not much,it popped after the oil finish.At first I too thought it was too dark.Not having any experience, my first build.It was trial and error on the tannin,had plenty of scrap.

[Joe S.]

I'm sure one of the fine folks here will chime in about getting the red tones you seek.Looking at my experience,all woods being different.I had tones in the red without using tannins,just Jim's aqua fortis,then Chambers oil finish.More brown tones using the tannins.I did get a little spooked after the stock turned black as night,LOL.If you look at some past threads on wood treatments you can find what folks used to get red tones,stains,dyes ect.

[PPatch]

"I guess the question is, if I applied the Maple stain first and don't like how it turns out, could I put a second coat of Iron Nitrate over the LMF stain and rub it out again? Or is the right order of process, Iron Nitrate first then stain last?"

Iron Nitrate first then stain - yes, that is the usual process with Aqua Fortis (Iron Nitrate).

I think you had it with that first try, as shown in your first photograph. I also believe that your particular wood is more rich in iron unlike that example you show in the second picture. Every piece of maple reacts somewhat differently to AQ than the next one. Either that or the the application of the tannin caused the overall darkness. Tannin is supposed to accentuate the figure, after you put that on is the time to rub it back some. So, when you put the AQ on she really went dark, but even so that might have looked good once your finish went on because the finish lightens the wood a few shades. Did you try rubbing on some mineral spirits, or even water, as a visual check of what the finish coat would look like on your "too dark stock"? I would bet that reddish toasty brown would have popped right out at you.

Before I commit to a stain over AQ I do some testing in the barrel channel, that will give you an idea of what your AQ and stains will do.

What to do now; If it were mine I would do another AQ treatment and afterwards do a check with an application of mineral spirit, just wet the stock somewhere and see what your final finish will likely bring out. If you think the stock will benefit from that LMF Maple stain test it in the barrel channel to see if you like it.

dave

[rich pierce]

I’ve seen red maple do that.  If you apply more ferric nitrate, an application of hydrogen peroxide may redden it up some. 

[leoparddog]

Thanks everyone,
Yes after I heated it up with the hot air gun I took some linseed oil cut with turpentine to it with a scotchbrite.  It did come out a nice dark brown, but it was so dark that the figure wasn't really visible.  I just wasn't going to be happy with it.  I'll give the AQF another run tonight and consider whether to use stain or the Hydrogen Peroxide solution.

[leoparddog]

I think this is where I'm going to leave it.      I'm putting on Tried&True Varnish Oil and will use a white scotchbrite on the first few coats but the color is just about what I had in mine.

Thanks everyone for being so very helpful. I'm not sure I could have done this without the ALR forum as a resource. 

[rich pierce]

Good color.

[Stophel]

Why does everybody suddenly seem obsessed with tannic acid?  Aqua Fortis does just fine on maple without any additional chemicals.   

I find that the softer the wood, the darker and grayer that Aqua Fortis will turn it (before heating).  I would dare say that your stock wood is pretty soft (silver maple?).

[Springcreek]

I like that “honey” tint!

[Mr. Bubbles]

Are you putting any driers in our Tried & True VArnish oil, or thinning it at all?  I put some on on Friday night and it was still somewhat soft this morning.  But then again, we've had about 90% humidity the last 4 days too.

[Stophel]

I like Tried and True Varnish Oil, but I think it is still way too soft for a surface varnish (in-the-wood finish, it's probably fine, though perhaps too hard to properly cut off with burlap...I haven't tried).  This can be rectified by dissolving some rosin in turpentine, and then adding it to the oil, and it makes for a much better varnish.  Don't ask me how much, I just mixed some up, and it came out right!   

It has to be applied L I G H T L Y.  No, lighter than that... nope, still lighter than that.  And lots of sunlight for each application to FULLY dry (I can tell by the change in the smell of it when it's dry).  If you don't let it fully dry, and add more on top of it, it will never dry.  It doesn't take absolutely forever, but it does take patience.

[leoparddog]

I've got 4 coats of Tried and True Varnish oil on now and I like the way it looks.  Took the gun out this weekend to shoot it. Stophel may be right though, it seems a little soft as a top coat.  Basically wipe it on, wait an hour or so and wipe or buff it off.  Definitely takes almost 24 hours to completely dry in my basement.  Outside in the sun for a few hours may help there too.

Considering a final layer of a harder top coat.  Not sure where I can find rosin so may go with Permalyn if I can't find rosin locally.  A quick google search for "rosin" ends up with a bunch of marijuana related links....learned something new this morning 

Maybe the right word is "resin"

[Martin S.]

Tried and True has no chemical dryers.

It takes a long, long, time to fully dry.

But it is safe so you can use your bare hands on it.

It is best if used sparingly.

From my woodworking, it is always a good idea to use a test board for your complete finishing recipe before trying it on your project.

[WadePatton]

Looks like you worked it out well enough.  But Martin says what I says here below. (emphasis added)

But for one exception--when you've got more than one bit of wood from the same tree and then I'd expect the grain to change but that finish development could be rather consistent. 

Of course in the case of kits-with very little extra wood--figure out where you're going to remove the most wood and test there or a hidden spot. Work out the whole recipe before starting to finish the gun.

Yours came out fine by "winging it," albeit you spent some extra hours I'm guessing with all that rubbing back.

Tried and True has no chemical dryers.

It takes a long, long, time to fully dry.

But it is safe so you can use your bare hands on it.

It is best if used sparingly.

From my woodworking, it is always a good idea to use a test board for your complete finishing recipe before trying it on your project.

[Stophel]

I have no clue what rosin would have to do with marijuana.  It's the resin formed from turpentine production.  Get it from an art supply house like Kremer Pigmente.  It's not very expensive, especially compared to other resins.  You can sometimes get dark rosin, which makes a nice, darker colored varnish.

Tried and True, and any other linseed oil finish NEEDS sunlight to dry.  LOTS of it.  It can sit in your basement literally forever and not fully dry.  Especially if it is put on heavy (the "flood and soak" method...  ).  Put each coat on VERY sparingly, and put it in the sun to dry.  Drying time varies, it may get thoroughly dry in a day or two or three of FULL sunlight.

If the oil/varnish is not really dry down inside, and you take the gun out into the sun on a hot day, the heat can actually "boil" the oil back out of the stock, and it will bubble up.....and then dry, leaving a bubble of varnish on the surface...  That's how you learn   

[Jim Kibler]

My experience is that the Tried and True Oil Varnish is plenty hard and durable when fully cured.  As has been mentioned, curing time can vary.  I'm sure additional rosin wouln't hurt and very well might help, though.  As has been thoroughly mentioned, sunlight and think coats is of paramount importance.

As to the tanic acid craze, it all started in recent times with this:  https://www.jimkibler.net/blog/previous/5 
(scroll down on page)

We started selling the powder and it really took off.  As to the merit of it, I like it at times, but it has it's drawbacks.  The biggest I see is that it tends to remove the warm tones that are acheived with iron nitrate alone.  It's also a lot more work to finish a gun using it.  What it dan do is dramatically accentuate the curl if it's present.

Jim

[Jim Kibler]

Leoparddog,

I think the finish of your stock came out great.  Persistence pays off!

Jim

[leoparddog]

Thanks Jim,
I think it turned out really well too.  Better than without the tannin coat. The stock didn't have much uniform curl and I think the tannin addition darkened up the curl nicely.  I found the local Dick Blick art supply house sells a variety of resins including Copal and undiluted Venice Turpentine, but I'm going to pass.  It looks good, so i'm going to start shooting it.