Freshing out rifling

[David R. Pennington]

Jim I would just leave enough of the void above the muzzle to facilitate pouring then pour the rest with a makeshift form after withdrawing the rod and file the makeshift pour to match the rest.

[Metalshaper]

My guess would be, that at the area of the triangle   ( left end ) that that may have been where the sprue had been? Casting in a smooth bore, the bulk of the rod cud have been inside the barrel and a dam made to pour in where  the sprue area was above the muzzle?
Once  cooled the rod cud be pulled up and the sprue and excess cleaned off.. then you would go about the freshing as usual??

But I'm only guessing

Respect  Always 
Metalshaper  /  Jonathan 

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

Here are some additional photos from the Fry brothers gunsmith tool collection showing smooth bore freshing rods.  These appear to be a more "normal" design that is more understandable.  Here, as with the rifling freshing rod, you can imagine the lead being poured into the open end of the muzzle to cast the rod.













Doing primary research in the "How Did They Do That" (HDTDT) can be rather frustrating, indeed.  I attempted to copy the Fry brothers freshing rod using wood as the connection part of the freshing rod.  After multiple failures to get a decent cast of the rifle barrel grooves, I finally was successful by substituting brass for the connection part of the freshing rod and casting the lead at well over 900 degees F.  I am sure that you understand that this would burn up a wood piece.  So, how the Fry brothers made their freshing remains quite a mystery to me.  Now, this leaves a gap in the HDTDT.  If anybody has ever cast a freshing rod on wood and gotten a good bore filling casting, please let me know the secret!

Jim

[heinz]

James, do you think they may have used 60/40 lead tin alloy ? This melts at a lower temperature with better flow characteristics and is considerably harder.
Just a thought

[Craig Wilcox]

I am wondering if "Cerrosafe"" casting alloy could be used.  I have used it many times to measure chambers and or rifling.
Cerrosafe melts at about 158 deg F., and cools rather quickly.  Totally reusable, BTW.  And stronger than a lead cutter holder would be.
It is a bit pricey at about $30/lb, but is sold in half-pound units, which would be appropriate for the task.

Craig

[Daryl]

Hard alloys and cerosafe likely do not 'give' enough windage.  This is evident if you try to slug a bore using WW alloy- you usually end up with a stuck 'slug'.

Cerosafe, which I have some, but never uses, I am told, must be removed (from the barrel or chamber) & measured within 1 hour of casting, preferably in 30 minutes as it will after that time, 'grow'. This 'growth' would not be good for something you wanted to move up and down the bore.

[Craig Wilcox]

"Cerosafe, which I have some, but never uses, I am told, must be removed (from the barrel or chamber) & measured within 1 hour of casting, preferably in 30 minutes as it will after that time, 'grow'. This 'growth' would not be good for something you wanted to move up and down the bore."


The "growth" amounts to about .0015" in a modern high power rifle.  It shrinks immediately upon cooling, allowing the cast to be withdrawn.  Measure between 30 and 60min after withdrawing.

I make the suggestion only.  The material is easy to work with - you can make a fine slug to get a picture of your rifling, and I personnaly have done that several times.  I do not know about the strength capability when "pulling" it through the barrel.  I do know that "pushing" it through the barrel is easy to do.  But I freely admit that I have never tried "Freshing the rifling" .

Could be interestingto ty.

Happy Fourth of July, my friends,and celebrate the birthday of this great Nation.  Long may it live!

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

I do not know what the original alloy the Fry brothers used.  However, it marks easily with my thumbnail so I assume it is pure lead and not an alloy.  The Fry brothers rifling machine uses a similar cast guide for the rifling, it seems to be harder so it could be a lead - tin mix.  For my freshing rod I tried several combinations of hot barrel - cool barrel; lead - alloy; hot melt and just barely liquid melt.  It got rather frustrating as I got failure after failure.  Things are easy if somebody else can show you how to do things.  But when you try to figure How Did They Do That (HDTDT) you are in for a tough learning experience.  To get a filled casting of the rifle bore I used pure lead, I also tried hard bullet mix but the mix did not shrink as much as lead upon cooling so I could not get it out of the barrel and I had to melt it out.  To get the lead to work I cleaned the bore really aggressively - brushes, lead removal jags, etc. The old barrel was pitted, so a casting of the bore included bunches of interlocking points in the corrosion pits.  What finally worked:

1.  Clean, brush, scrape the bore until you arm goes numb.
2.  Grease the bore with heavy automobile type grease - not oil.
3.  Coat the bore with soot from an acetylene torch tip inserted into the bore, lots of soot.
4.  Use brass for the connection part of the freshing rod.
5.  Heat the pure lead to over 900F, pour it in quickly.
6.  Gently push the cooled lead out.  Never, never, never use a hammer to tap the end of the rod, this only obturates, expands, the lead.  If you try to push the lead freshing rod out of the bore using a hammer, this does not work.

For the Fry brothers original freshing rod HDTDT wood to lead joint?  Still a mystery to me.

Jim

[G_T]

I mentioned a while back on this thread about a barrel I was working on, removing a constriction and tooling marks. Not exactly freshening, so a little OT. I finally made it to a range to test. The loading was certainly much smoother, but the muzzle end of the barrel is still tighter than the back 2/3. It is not as radical as it was. I'm going to guess the same abrupt narrowing of the bore on the lands was carried through to the grooves during the rifling. I could fix that, but... Grouping was a few inches at 50, no load workup (70gr 3F nominally 45 cal). That's better than it was. Perhaps with the right load it would group. However, it still hits well off. It is about 10" high at 50 with one ball size and more like 12" with another. L/R is pretty good. I don't really have that much rear sight to remove and the front isn't exactly low profile. It would look really goofy if I jacked up the front sight enough to compensate. I think I've got one of those barrels where the center of the bore doesn't stay centered through the middle of the barrel though it is centered at the ends. Oh well, it is now an unfinished wall-hanger until I feel like replacing the barrel, or attempting deliberately bending it. Waste of work. On to the next one.

Gerald

[G_T]

Make that 8" and 10".

There is a difference in feel and sound to the bore when running a ball down, or running patches down when cleaning. The front foot feels different - less smooth - than the rest. The rest is very smooth. That's funny in a sense because I lapped the lands end-to-end. I've decided to freshen the rifling, and then bend the barrel if necessary afterwards to correct the point of aim.

So I guess I'll be joining the group and building a dedicated freshing jig sometime this year. And then experimenting with pouring lead on wood.

I wonder if the lead could be poured in short sections? Start with the wood core sticking out the muzzle and pour the first part into the muzzle. Let it cool some, lower it down, pour the next part, etc. That way the pour is small each time and the metal doesn't have far to travel while liquid. Some trimming between pours might be needed, and I don't know if it would stick or be worthless.

I have a problem with more tools than shop, and more projects than time!

Gerald

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

Here are some more photos of freshing rods by unknown gunsmiths.  The first photo is more clear, so we will look at this one.  Think of How Did They Do That?  (HDTDT)  How did the old time gunsmith get the lead sections into the wood rod?  How did he do that without scorching the wood?  This question gets a whole lot more difficult if you try to replicate this common tool.  The skill level of the old timers was amazing.

Jim