Tang Thickness

[Nhgrants]

The Coleraine barrel I bought has a breech plug tang that is about 1/4 inch thick.  Is it common to reduce
The thickness? What is reasonable thickness?
Thanks

[PPatch]

Yes you can. but why do you want to thin it, using a vice it is fairly easy to bend to your stock profile as is. Some do reduce the thickness by about a third, But I wouldn't say it is commonly done. I never bother with it. You can file the radius at the rear under the top surface square in order to begin the bend slightly higher on the tang. Once you have your bend "close enough," you can file the top of the tang to match the stock. Before inletting you will want to file a slight taper on the sides of the tang without removing any at the top. You may also want to file a decorative end on the tip.

dave

 

[EC121]

     It is really personal choice.  I reduce the thickness of mine by about half and square off the radius underneath where the tang meets the plug for a better bend and less filing.  The square off lets the metal bend a little closer to the breech for a better flow into the wrist and avoids the humpbacked look of some rifles.  I, personally, just don't like to see a big chunk of unneeded metal.  Just more to inlet.  It doesn't take much metal to hold the tang screw.   
    Not being in a production situation, I enjoy the shop time so the extra work doesn't bother me. 

[Mark Elliott]

I don't typically vary the thickness of my tangs before inletting except for over the comb tangs on TN rifles.   That is a subject unto itself.  For most short tangs,   I just bend them close to the profile of the wrist in the vise and file them to the final profile once inlet.   This usually thins the tang a little a the end, but not much.   That is all the thinning that I do.   It is not thinning for the sake of thinning, but to match a profile.

[flehto]

The first thing I do is reduce the large radius underneath to 1/32" and then file  back the back of the  bolster  and angle it along w/ the sides.  The tang thickness is reduced after inletting and  the end always is thicker than behind the breech....don't like a "hump" or flat length  behind the breech because it destroys the curvature of the wrist which runs into a short length of the bbl.......Fred

[Cory Joe Stewart]

On what few originals I have seen the tang thickness is tapered towards the back.  Almost down to 1/8" at the back.  Bending is not the issue.  I think it allows you to leave more wood in the area of the stock that can be very weak. 

Cory Joe Stewart

[Mr. Bubbles]

What others have said.  You can also shorten the plug as it extends in to the wrist.  What you do NOT want to do, is undercut the tang so as to help facilitate the bend closer to the breech.  That will make it prone to breaking off, and making a bigger mess for you to solve.  These plugs are cast and machined rather than forged, so the internal structure of them is not one that is particularly robust.  Many people bend them cold, but I can;t see how the addition of a little heat can hurt anything, and might just save you some ill-timed suss words. 

[Elnathan]

These plugs are cast and machined rather than forged, so the internal structure of them is not one that is particularly robust.

What, what? Are you talking about the standard simple plugs or the patent breeches with bolsters, etc?

[Mr. Bubbles]

Standard plugs.  Not patent breeches.

[Elnathan]

Standard plugs.  Not patent breeches.

I thought those were machined out of solid stock...

[rich pierce]

Forging parts can align grain especially in wrought iron.  Machining solid stock does not align any grain.  Often the radius on the underside of a breechplug tang is made to prevent stress risers from a right angle.  However since the tang is bent down, compressing, not opening, the angle, a right angle there is not a real risk.

Because original tangs were forged, they were usually tapered in thickness from breech to the tail end.  I think it’s inconsequential as to whether tapered or not. 

[Elnathan]

I don't believe that with steel, a crystal structure, there is any difference at all between forged and machined from solid stock. Any difference should disappear when the forging is normalized, anyway. What giving me conniptions is the idea that those $11 breechplugs that are fitted to the vast majority of guns out there are machined from a wax casting - I know that a lot patent breeches are also cast, but they cost five times as much and are supposedly x-rayed to ensure that there are no voids (whether x-rays could actually see a seam in the casting is open to doubt, I believe).

I'm hoping that I just misunderstood Mr. Bubbles. I did have a conversation a year and a bit ago with a vender regarding the kind of steel used in various kinds of breechplugs, and he made a pretty clear distinction between cast plugs and machined plugs. That might be worth following up on.

[flehto]

Has anybody seen or heard of a tang breaking off from the bolster? Whatever the steel is or how the tang is made, I've never encountered a break when bending the tang cold and the pic shows how my tangs end up. Seeing I don't like a "hump" or flat length behind the breech end of the bbl, don't see how the tang can turn out differently than in my photo unless more steps are taken to make the tang uniform in thickness over its entire length. I don't bother doing that......Fred

 

[Mike Brooks]

I don't believe that with steel, a crystal structure, there is any difference at all between forged and machined from solid stock. Any difference should disappear when the forging is normalized, anyway. What giving me conniptions is the idea that those $11 breechplugs that are fitted to the vast majority of guns out there are machined from a wax casting - I know that a lot patent breeches are also cast, but they cost five times as much and are supposedly x-rayed to ensure that there are no voids (whether x-rays could actually see a seam in the casting is open to doubt, I believe).

I'm hoping that I just misunderstood Mr. Bubbles. I did have a conversation a year and a bit ago with a vender regarding the kind of steel used in various kinds of breechplugs, and he made a pretty clear distinction between cast plugs and machined plugs. That might be worth following up on.

I'm not aware of any cast breech plugs except for the patent breech type stuff, lollypop tangs, etc. Many custom barrel makers machine breech plugs from what ever they are making barrels out of.

I always cut the radius out of the plug, it allows you to get the bend closer to the breech. I generally leave them the thickness they come unless they are super thick as you  sometimes get with a Colerain barrel, even then I will often leave them as they are.

[LRB]

I don't believe that with steel, a crystal structure, there is any difference at all between forged and machined from solid stock. Any difference should disappear when the forging is normalized, anyway. What giving me conniptions is the idea that those $11 breechplugs that are fitted to the vast majority of guns out there are machined from a wax casting - I know that a lot patent breeches are also cast, but they cost five times as much and are supposedly x-rayed to ensure that there are no voids (whether x-rays could actually see a seam in the casting is open to doubt, I believe).

I'm hoping that I just misunderstood Mr. Bubbles. I did have a conversation a year and a bit ago with a vender regarding the kind of steel used in various kinds of breechplugs, and he made a pretty clear distinction between cast plugs and machined plugs. That might be worth following up on.

 You are correct Nathan, and forging does not align grain. Grain is aligned in bar steel when it is hot rolled formed. Until the first time it is heated to red after being rolled and cooled, at which time the grain shape becomes random, very much like chip board from the lumber stores, and cannot be changed from then on. What is commonly referred to as directional grain is not the individual grains, but impurities and tiny gas voids in the steel which are narrowed and stretched lengthwise during the rolling process. These never change shape, other than to follow curves made to the bar, and give steel more strength, and are especially helpful in curved applications. I read somewhere that in modern steel casting, there is no more than a 10% difference in strength, elasticity, or plasticity. That may or may not be correct, and I do not remember my source.

[elkhorne]

Fred,
I notice in your photo that there is a little vee or notch at the point where the plug meets the tang. Does that help smooth the bend a little and help also in eliminating the hump seen on some rifles? Thanks and good luck on your current build. I enjoy seeing your progress and following your work.
elkhorne

[flehto]

Hi....The notch at the junction of the tang and bolster is actually a small radius. I do that or just file in a 1/32 radius. The back of the bolster had some steel removed  so there wouldn't be a "hump" or flat behind the breech......Fred

[Elnathan]

I did write to the folks at MBS, and they confirmed that the standard plugs that look machined are in fact machined from solid stock, if anyone else was interested.