Author Topic: TOW Colonial Long Rifle Parts  (Read 2209 times)

Offline Big Bertha

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TOW Colonial Long Rifle Parts
« on: September 03, 2018, 12:41:01 AM »
I'm wanting to build another gun. Several years ago I put together a Jim Bridger Hawken from Track. I'm starting to get the bug back and wanted to look at a Colonial Rifle from Track. I'd rather not tackle another Hawken or a pre-inlet. Is there anyone out there that has had experience with the Colonial parts set. I'd like to see pictures of what you have come up with. Any other hints would be great as well.

Offline Jason C

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Re: TOW Colonial Long Rifle Parts
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2018, 12:46:20 AM »
I'd take a LONG look at Jim Kibler's kits if I were you:


https://kiblerslongrifles.com/collections/colonial-rifle-kit
« Last Edit: September 03, 2018, 01:10:56 AM by Jason C »

54ball

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Re: TOW Colonial Long Rifle Parts
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2018, 11:10:08 AM »

 It's really a decent little set that will teach you a lot, if you really want to learn.

 I was a fireman by trade. The first fire engine I drove was Palmerdale"s 1972 FMC Ford C cab John Bean. I was 19. The first drive I stalled that big 5 speed Ford on a hill, a steep hill. Sure enough a passenger car stopped right behind me. I had to hold the brake, start her up, get first, let off the brake, give her some gas, let off the clutch, while not stalling the engine and not rolling back and crushing the car. I did it and from that time on I could drive that old truck. I mention this.....

 If I could drive that Ford....I could drive any of them.
 If you can build Tracks Colonial, you can build any of them including from blanks.
 My opinion of it, it's a good learner. 

 It's been a hectic year, but I'm just into this set so I'll share.

Untitle[url=https://flic.kr/p/27rYL7i]Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickrd[/url] by Travis Brown, on Flickr

Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
Barrel does not fit into stock
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
 Square the breech

Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
 It's a great deal of work to get the barrel down. You have to be very careful not to damage the stock removing the barrel as it is preshaped. The barrel can stick.
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
 This set requires fitting the breech plug. I have no photos of that bet here is the reult after fitting the breech.
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
 erasing and drawing a new line for the barrel rails. Then I took the sides of the barrel channel down to the line.
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
 Drilled a hole in the barrel channel and used a depth gauge to find the bottom of the RR hole. The I worked up to draw the web.
 I also marked breech location and marked where I want the touch hole on the side flat.
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
 Filing a draft in the lock plate.
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
 I decided to try letting this lock in one piece. I have my vent location line drawn on the stock. I also have the web location marked for the front bolt.
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
 Got it into position and gave it a whack with a soft blow to mark the sear.
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr


Offline FlintFan

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Re: TOW Colonial Long Rifle Parts
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2018, 03:20:06 PM »
I'd rather not tackle another Hawken or a pre-inlet.

If that is the route you want to take, Tracks Colonial kit is a good way to go.  As 54Ball pointed out in his post, you will have a much wider choice in styles you could make from the one kit.  You will learn much more about gun building as well.  While it is technically a "precarve", it is a very basic one that can be purchased without a lock inlet and it has only very basic shaping done.  It can be taken in many directions.

If you are looking to learn more about all the aspects of gun building, that would be a good one to go with.  While the Kibler kits appear to be very nice and very well designed, I'm afraid all you learn from putting together a Kibler kit, is how to put together a Kibler kit.  While there is nothing wrong with that, it sounds like you are looking to get something more out of this project.


Offline Big Bertha

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Re: TOW Colonial Long Rifle Parts
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2018, 03:53:48 PM »
I looked at Kibler's kit and it looks like is well done and I've read great things about his stuff on this board. It's just not hitting the price point I'm needing right now. Also I am looking to learn more about in-letting etc. I think the TOW is the one I'll go with.
Thanks for the pictures. They will help a ton as I move through my project. I already have Recreating the American Longrifle and Gunsmith of Grenville County as reference material. I also know a guy who has made several very nice rifles that I can ask questions and get help here and there.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: TOW Colonial Long Rifle Parts
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2018, 04:30:26 PM »
Build from a blank, you'll run into far less trouble. It' was kits like this that made me start building from a plank 33 years ago, too many problems built into that style of precarve. Nothing but aggravation.
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Offline Craig Wilcox

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Re: TOW Colonial Long Rifle Parts
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2018, 09:08:33 PM »
Big Bertha, you've gotten some good leads and direction.  You know your own strengths and weaknesses.  So get your TOW kit and go for it!
You will need all your edge tools super-sharp.  Glue a piece of leather to a piece of wood, and make a strop.  Rub in some rosin, jeweler's rouge, Tripoli, etc.  Even mag wheel polish has been used!  Strop frequently, and your tools will cut where you want them to.
Take your time building.  Often, I use more time figuring out a solution than I use following that solution!
Have some fun, don't be afraid of making mistakes.  Except for Mike Brooks, we have all made mistakes from time to time.  Learn from them!  You are working with two pliable things - wood and metal.  And they can be cut, bent, burnt, and drilled - and repaired where necessary.
Good luck with your project, and keep us posted.
Craig Wilcox
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54ball

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Re: TOW Colonial Long Rifle Parts
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2018, 07:55:22 AM »

As you can see I have one on the bench now, the following is my opinion of it,

 It's a basic set that can make a very good rifle, In my opinion it can make a better rifle than some of the more popular semi custom outfits, if the builder does his part.

 architecture...
 It's a shaped but non inlet early Lancaster Pattern likely from Pecatonica River. It's oversize. The stock is rather ambiguous. The web between the barrel channel and ramrod groove while not as thin as lot of guys like it not excessive and is not unlike some original rifles.
  It's a straight barreled rifle. It will not have the exact same grace and handling of a swamped barrel rifle. A straight barreled rifle can still make a great rifle. John Armstrong and Nathaniel Rowe did pretty good. There are some aspects of construction that are simplified with a straight barrel.
 Here again if the builder studies architecture....does their part, it can make a fine rifle.

 wood...
 It's likely red maple. It tends to be soft. When the barrel channel is squared and the breech cut in, this wood cuts like....Bread. Try to inlet a barrel breech into a fresh French loaf.
 I have been used to hard sugar maple, cherry and walnut, This stuff requires uber sharp tools, stropped often. It requires a light touch not only because of the soft wood but because it's shaped and is not as resilient as working wood in the square,
 Once you know how it works it's fine. Personally I found out working this stock that my tools were not as sharp as I thought. I could get away with it with better wood but in the end working this has been of some benefit for me.

 castings...
 The worst I have ever seen....
 Not only are they rough with black casting sand still clinging, the trigger guard was cast asymmetrical in the mold. Meaning, there is a seam line where both halves were not in perfect alignment.
 Very Colonial! :o Really this feature is the only true Colonial thing about this set.
 With that said.
  The brass quality is good. I have heard that Tracks more expensive investment cast brass is more of a bronze alloy, hard to work, a strange color and somewhat brittle. Their cheaper castings seem to be soft and very workable.
 In my opinion you can lean so much about rifle building from those rough castings.
 This is what you learn....
 Taking a imperfect and inherently flawed raw piece. Working it into something that looks near perfect...the best it can. It's not perfect....it never will be but you can make look like it is. It's not going to be symmetrical but you can make it look that way. The human face is not symmetrical so this does not have to be either. 
 Like I said this aspect is very Colonial. You will file for hours and hours.

 I have nothing against the Kibler. It's a great product. I quite literally could have put a Kibler Colonial together in the same time it took me to file that Track Colonial trigger guard.....that single piece.

Do you want a fine rifle or do you want learn about building? This is the thing...building a rifle like this enables you to build a Kibler in the time it takes to file a rough casting.

 Locks and triggers...

  Being a pre shape non inlet, you can choose any lock. I chose a Chambers Golden Age. I chose the Bivens trigger that I'm going to remove the lug and pin into the wood.
 One good thing. There's no problems with lock or trigger location. Some pre inlets have poor lock location. On a set like this you place the lock. You have to lay it out like a blank.

 working it...
 Like all pre carves there are some problems. You can't hoss it or you will beak stuff. It will be harder to cut for the buttplate as the stock is not flat. that's more of a challenge. Since it's pre shaped and fairly thin....you have to be careful bringing the barrel rails down.
 
I'm getting to the point I have to decide what this rifle is going to be. Most of the time I have a style I'm emulating. Since this stock is so ambiguous it can be a rudderless ship in that respect.

 All in all it is what it is. It can make a very good rifle in my opinion.

 The work involved is incredible. It's as much or more than a blank build. One thing that helps especially for a new builder is that the thing kind of looks like a rifle rather than a block of wood.

 Is it the best.... absolutely not.

 The best pre shaped come from guys like Dennis Glazener...Gillespie Rifle Works or David Keck..Knob Mountain with his great castings and wonderful (Fred Miller) stock patterns. Many are taken from originals. These stocks come with the buttstocks shaped to the rear of the lock panel...in the square forward, Both of those guys can get better wood.
 If you want a truly historical preshape non inlet..... go with fellows like that,


 

Offline David Rase

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Re: TOW Colonial Long Rifle Parts
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2018, 05:01:03 PM »
Build from a blank, you'll run into far less trouble. It' was kits like this that made me start building from a plank 33 years ago, too many problems built into that style of precarve. Nothing but aggravation.
I second what the blabber mouth says!  ;D
David

54ball

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Re: TOW Colonial Long Rifle Parts
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2018, 09:29:06 PM »
Build from a blank, you'll run into far less trouble. It' was kits like this that made me start building from a plank 33 years ago, too many problems built into that style of precarve. Nothing but aggravation.
I second what the blabber mouth says!  ;D
David

  I' have not seen any inherent problems with this stock. There are many on the market that are pretty bad, Some that have routed out ramrod grooves and deep webs . A routed channel may not be a deal killer but if the web is too big.....the routed channel too deep, it's slab sided and and there's a big chance of breakthrough when you do the belly of a the forestock. That's a problem. 
 
 This particular stock is good in that regard.

Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
 That was a cheap part but after a great deal of work I thinks it's usable. I had to clean it up so I could figure my trigger plate.

 This is kind of theme with this set. It's cheaper stuff requiring more work but it's not....bad or un workable.
 The wood issue as mentioned is a matter of skill and tool sharpness. That grade of wood is typical for the price point.

 The whippy nature, care required and other issues to build a pre-shaped stock has been mentioned. An advantage is that the preshaped stock can be worked down with minimal hand tools.
 Someone who is not set up for a blank can build a pre-carve.

 Mr. Brooks, Mr. Rase, Build from a blank is easy to say. In many aspects I agree but what is the solution for someone not set up to build from a blank? What would be a good solution for Big Bertha and his 6-750 price point?

 This is the solution I thought of......

 Firstly he may need to adjust that price point. Maybe he can spend a little more.....spread out.

 Lets just say Mr. Bertha likes JP Beck. He understands that this is going to be a more involved process than one stop shopping. He studies his books. He says he has a mentor.
 He orders some Beck drawings from Erick or Knob Mountain.
 He uses these for a plywood pattern that he can shoulder to see if he likes the fit. Once all that is confirmed.
 He gets a barrel and a good piece of wood and draws his layout,
 He then sends this to someone who can inlet the barrel drill the hole and cut the wood down to shape but in the square so he can work it at home.
 Or.....he hand inlets the barrel and then sends it off to be drilled and cut to pattern...

 is this a good option?
 

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: TOW Colonial Long Rifle Parts
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2018, 11:12:57 PM »
Quote
Mr. Brooks, Mr. Rase, Build from a blank is easy to say. In many aspects I agree but what is the solution for someone not set up to build from a blank? What would be a good solution for Big Bertha and his 6-750 price point?
I don't think you're going to get quality parts for that price. So, it seems the solution would be save a few more bucks till you can buy the right parts. I would never consider taking a commission to build a gun from this particular stock.  I have already went through these types of stocks more than 30 years ago and found building from a blank far easier. But then, I already stated that once. I've already said my piece and counted to three...…. :P
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Offline David Rase

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Re: TOW Colonial Long Rifle Parts
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2018, 11:47:36 PM »

 Mr. Brooks, Mr. Rase, Build from a blank is easy to say. In many aspects I agree but what is the solution for someone not set up to build from a blank? What would be a good solution for Big Bertha and his 6-750 price point?

Several years ago I taught a class at the Oregon Gunmakers Fair on just this subject.  It was a class for guys who had built at least one gun from a kit and wanted to step up there game and build from a plank.  The challenge was that I only had 2 days to teach the class.  What I eventually decided to do in order to get the most bang for the students buck was to change up the order completely and turn the stock blank basically into a precarved stock and then the students could inlet their hardware which they were already familiar with how to do that.  The concept was not to out there since I can remember seeing stocks from the inventories of 18th century gunmakers that were basically hewed down to the rough shape of a rifle for drying.  The students agreed that the class was a success as I was able to help them "find" the gun within the plank by helping them to overcome a lot of the intimidation factor of where to begin. 

I am in no way bad mouthing pre-carved stocks as there are good ones and not so good ones.  I just don't like to start out with someone else's mistakes as I make enough of them on my own.  I have found out that in the couple of "kits" I have built some things go faster with a pre-carved stock and some things took longer so it was kind of a wash. 

As for being "setup" to build from a plank vs. a pre-carved if a guy has or has access to a band saw and has a few big chisels/gouges and a spoke shave or draw knife and knows how to use them, I don't see much more is needed to whittle down a blank into a gunstock except for someone with experience to help mentor you along and answer questions before you start cutting.
David