Metal Finish Help

[brokenflint]

Ok it's taking me forever to finish up brass parts and my locks.  I know at one time there was a thread on tools and techniques but I would like to revisit it again.  I'm working on a Kibler Colonial kit atm.   Kit assembled fairly quickly so now I'm into cleaning up the brass.  I just take way to long to clean up the metal parts. 

So how do you guys approach this and what tools/techniques do you use to speed the process?  In Jim's videos he shows using a stone which breaks down quickly and conforms to the wedding band profiles.  I have no idea what this specific stone is called but I need to add one to the tool kit if it helps me.  Many builders can finish a gun in a week, takes me that long or longer to file/stone/polish a lock, nevermind the brass parts.   I by no means am a speed builder but I need some help here 

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

That you are not a speed builder is a very good thing.  I know you are anxious to see the end result, but it is imperative that you take your time and do each process right and well.

Start by clamping the guard in some sort of fixture to hold the guard.  A temporary one can be made out of 3/8" fir plywood.  Cut the top edge at the same angles as the extensions of the guard, and cut out the part in the rail and bow so that the fixture clamps only onto the attaching lugs.

Now file all surfaces with small fine files to remove parting lines and the cast finish.  Next, backing abrasive cloth or paper with either wooden pieces or the same files you used, remove all the file marks.  Do this step with abrasive cloth or paper in the 80 - 120 grit range.

Now remove those marks left by the first abrasive with 180 grit, stroking at an angle different than the first, so you will leave parallel scratches of 180 grit and remove all those left by the 120.

Now stroking at another different angle that may be the same one you used with 120, remove all the 180 grit scratches with 220 grit abrasive.

Continue this process going to finer and finer grades of abrasive until you end at at least 400 grit.  Now burnishing with 0000 steel weool will give you a nice finish.  If it still says to you it needs a finer finish, go as high as you want, ie:  1200, 1500, or 1800 grit.  I think that's overkill, though I often finish at 1200 before burnishing.

One thing you'll find...each successive grit will go faster and faster, removing the marks left by the previous abrasive.  But it is imperative that you remove all the marks left by the previous paper/cloth before moving along.

Do not be tempted to use a buffing devise.  Nothing ruins hardware more quickly.

The butt plate can be mounted on a scrap of wood cut to roughly fit the inside curves, and screwed down gently.  Thimbles can be held on a drill shank that will just pass through the hole, or a tapered holder like a rat tailed file.  Nose piece gets polished on the wood.  Side plate likewise can be screwed down to a scrap of wood so it can be held flat in your vise.

Now the lock...start with the plate.  Here, stones might work better for you.  I don't have any, so use my system described above for the lock and its parts.

Here's a trigger guard I made for my Wm. Antes swivel project, using a sand cast guard I bought from TOW,  There's lots of brass in those sand cast guards!!

[TommyG]

Quality files..... and keep them clean.  The better finish left by the file, the easier the rest goes.  I have the best luck with older "made in US" files, which can be had at garage sales, flea markets, etc.  I also have a few sets of swiss cut needle files that leave great finishes for intricate work like locks & triggerguards.  I dedicate one set for brass only.

[p.d.]

The stones Jim Kibler sites were from Congress Tool.  I just received several of their Supersoft stones in different grits and shapes.  I used mine for the same project you are working on and they seemed to work well.   www.congresstools.com. 

[Mark Elliott]

As a general rule, you start with course tools and go to finer ones.   I wouldn't use stones on brass.    I do most of my finishing of mounts with #1 Grobet Habilis (set of five shapes) files.   I highly recommend a set for brass and one for steel.   I will use a bastard file in flat, half round, and round before the #1 files if I need to remove a lot of metal.    I get the contours like I want with the #1 files and then move on to #2 needle files to finish file.   I then move to abrasives, generally 1" cloth rolls,  in the following grits 120/220/320/400/600.   I back the abrasives with files and blocks of wood.   You can use stones instead of cloth and paper abrasives.   I have some round and square stones in 120/320/600 grit of various types.   However,  I generally only use the stones on locks.   I have never needed stones for mounts.   I could always get by with files and abrasives backed with files.   As a general rule, you don't move to a finer tool, files or abrasives, until you have removed the tool marks from the courser tool or abrasives.    That way, you progress as quickly as possible. 

The places, like the inside of the trigger guard bow, that are not readily seen do not need to be finished as well.  At least, they weren't as well finished in the originals.   The inside of the trigger guard bow was often course filed and scraped.   

[Craig Wilcox]

I use Gesswein stones - they have a set of 9 "all-grit" sampler for just a few dollars.  The stones range from 100 to 1200 grit, used with any light oil.  www.gesswein.com.  Do as Mark says, and only use the stones on steel or iron - brass is too soft, and reacts best to sand paper type abrasives.
And please, do not try to buff - buffing will round off all your carefully made sharp angles.

[brokenflint]

Some photos of work to help see where I'm coming from.  First lock photo is Kibler kit lock in progress, second is one for an early Va I've been working on, last trigger for Kibler kit

My process is
a. File - but I'm all over the place in what I'm using, needle files, triangular files, need get a good set of finish files
b. Abrasive paper backed with plexiglass - various shapes, double stick tape attached, usually 400 to 600 grit finish

Hope this helps some

[Mark Elliott]

Your lock is not looking so bad.   The last one I polished took me about 16 hours.    I do use stones on the locks.   I got mine from Congress Tools.   I also use a flex shaft grinder with various shaped silicon polishing wheels to speed work an a hardened frizzen.     

I think the reason your brass is going so slow is that you need a set of coarser files.   If you can afford some good Swiss files,  then a few #0 (pillar, half round, round), a set of #1 Habilis, and a set of #2 needle files would give you a good start.   I use Grobet when I  can afford it.   They are sharper and hold their edge longer than the Nicholson that I use.  Generally, I buy Nicholson files in larger sizes and bastard cut.  I use Swiss files for the finer cuts. 

I send my dull files to Boggs Tool for sharpening.   It is cheaper than new files, and they often come back sharper than they were new.

It also helps to hold the work securely in a fixture and use both hands on the file.   Taylor gave you good advise on that.   Slow, deliberate, and precise cuts with the file will speed your work. I don't always do that myself, but that is the fastest way to a good result.

 

[Mike Lyons]

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=47002.0

Polishing the lock and brass takes time and is something you have to do.  Some people complain about it, some say they like it.  I’ve even seen some offer to pay others to do it.  Good files and good sandpaper is about all the advice I can give. 

[davec2]

As others have noted, files to prep steel and iron, files and scrapers to prep brass.  Then I use these.  Easy to replace belts quickly.  On steel or brass, I use a light honing oil with the sanding sticks.  The belts last much longer.  Just move the belt a bit as each area of the belt wears.  These are 1/4 inch wide and get into almost all places.  They are also made larger for wood work, etc.   Available from several places like this:

https://smile.amazon.com/Lumberton-12302-Sanding-Sticks-Finishing/dp/B0039ZCQAK/ref=pd_sbs_21_1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=9BRXRRXCD2GSN1RXPJ45

Rio Grande and Gesswein also sell them and belts in every grit.

[kutter]

Files for shaping and removing excess mat'l. Don't be shy about using a rough cut file.
They will remove mat'l quickly, not load up as easily and the quicker you bring the part to the near final shape the less chance you have
of getting it wrong.
Going over and over the work dinking around with a fine cut file wether on wood or metal is asking for trouble in shaping up a part.

(I use a belt grinder quite a lot in my general polishing and metal work on other guns, so I'm liable to use it when shaping up a part for a M/L build too. It's fast, cuts clean, leaves everything flat and sharp. But you can get into trouble REAL fast if you don't watch out.
Use it if you have one and feel comfortable using it, if only for a few cuts here and there to minimize the bull work.)

Keep belts , files and grit cloth used on brass separate from that used for steel.

Get it close with the rough cut files, then refine and remove those marks with a lesser cut and finally fine cut files.
Draw filing where possible even on the brass parts will leave a very fine flat smooth finish. Even done on the curved surfaces, it will
keep them w/o ripples. The final finish can be done with any of the many choices of grit cloths.

For a long time I've used garnet paper normally used for wood sanding as my choice for hand polishing brass parts.
It cuts well and seems 'softer' as far as the finish is concerned. No harsh grit marks left behind. I imagine the garnet grit breaks down somewhat and doesn't scar the surface like the same in carborundum or  others. I like it.
220, 280 & 320 are the grits in Garnet I generally use.
Going finer I do go to Wet or Dry grit papers.

Criss-cross polishing  as the grit # go up to elliminate marks from the previous and stop when it's shiny enough for you.
Back-up what ever you do use. I forever have used files, but many use wood blocks and any number of other hard surface items.

For some curved surafces, plain ole' grade school Pink Pearl erasers are of good use as a backer. They are hard enough to keep things flat but soft enought to comform to the curves. Work well on wood too.
Wood blocks w/a 1/4" thick felt glued to them work well too.

A very light touch, and I mean very light swipe over with X-fine scotchbrite as a last touch blends any directional marks away.
It still takes some experience to develope a feel for doing the work, just like any other.

[Cory McArtor]

Keep belts , files and grit cloth used on brass separate from that used for steel.

I'm in the middle of learning this stuff too and just saw this part. What is the purpose of using different stuff for brass and steel?

[Craig Wilcox]

Cory, your files and sand papers will transfer materials sanded - you may leave steel imbedded in brass and vice versa.
And you keep your newest files for wood.  Wood, being softer than metal, won't dull your new files, and will let you make nice, crisp surfaces and corners.  When they do start to feather a bit on wood, they are still pretty good for metal.  But never go back to wood with them, as there is a good possibility that you will transfer little bits of metal onto/into the wood, which will really mess up your finish later on.  Same reason to clean thoroughly after using steel wool to polish down, or burnish, a nice wood finish.  Those 3-M abrasive scrubbers do a good job with no nasty residue.  And your wife can still use them to scrub pots!

[davec2]

Forgot to mention.....I do file surfaces with coarse and then fine files, but I don't go too crazy here.  (So far I have about 30 to 45 minutes invested in a butt or trigger guard at this point.)  I do most of the brass surface removal by scraping with a utility knife blade, but not with the edge - I stone the two 45 degree edges to a sharp 90 and use those.  Scraping a large butt plate takes another 30 minutes.  See picture below.

Here I am scraping a butt plate with the angled edge of a box cutter blade.  It takes off brass more rapidly and more smoothly than a file and leaves a finish that does not take too much more work with the abrasive paper or sticks I mentioned above.





By the way, I scrape steel parts as well.  You just have to refresh the edge of the scraper much more often.

[brokenflint]

Sorry for the late reply here, life suddenly got in the way the last couple of weeks    so no hobby fun for me! 

Taylor thanks for the reminders of the general overview of the metal finishing process.  Was good to address those basics again.  I've got a trigger guard jig and holding mandrels for my thimbles, but I've not found them since he move Lol.  I started to remake the holding jig for the pipes, then the world fell apart  .

Davec2  I like the smaller sanding belt jigs, I have a larger size but didn't realize they made the smaller ones, order will be headed out this week!
Thanks for the tip on using a utility nife blade to scrape, I think I will be giving this a try in that hard to get at area of flats at wedding bands etc. There always seems to be unfinished zone at these locations.

I do have dedicated brass work files, so no issue there. 

Thanks all for the replies