Info needed on repro Enfield P58 and P61?

[Canuck Bob]

Info needed on repro Enfield P58 and P61?

I'm starting to shop for an Enfield P58 2 band or P61 Musketoon model.

What do folks think of the Italian models including the Parker Hale versions, both new and used?

Does anyone know how to tell if the PH is British built or Italian built. I've researched but need an idea from the SN as inspection of marks may not be possible.

This is for my Canadian interests and not for the ACW repros.

Thanks
Bob

 

[Daryl]

Hi Bob. I had an Army San Polo model 61. As it was an early rifle, it has (I was told) a Parker Hale barrel & has the 5-groove rifling normal to that model.
The Parker Hale Enfields have progressive rifling & thus are preferred to any repros that do not. The rifling is .008" deeper at the breech, than at the muzzle.
My Musketoon had this progressive rifling as well. I do not think the later Italian guns had this style of rifling. Mine shot splendidly with patched round balls.
I started off using .575" balls case from a Shilo Gang mould(4-cavity), however the bore was undersized at .574", which might be why PH sold them to the Italians.
Since a .575" ball would sit on top of the muzzle without a patch, there were a mite tight loading. After a while, I purchased a Lee .562" DC mould, which actually
cast .562"x.562" balls from both cavities. I used either the .020 ticking, or 10oz. denim I measured at .0225" or the .0235" railroad ticking. All shot well and the ball
must have slugged up as the fired patches were reusable.
75gr. to 85gr. 2F was my favoured loads for trail walks.  My early testing with 75.0gr. GOEX 2F produced 1,308fps with the .575" pure lead ball and gave me a 5-shot group
 of 3" at 100yards. I no longer have that target, unfortunately.  85gr. was my go-to load for this rifle as I found it actually shot better than the 75gr. load out to our longest
targets on the trail, 109yards(100meters).
In the 1970's I worked up loads for 2 PH rifles, a 3-band(m53) and a 2-band (m58). Both rifles shot well with 85gr. of 2F GOEX and .575" round balls and .022" denim patches.
Were I to get another, a 2-band 1858 would be my choice, however the 3-band with the 78" rifling would also be nice.
The 1861 makes for a better bush hunting rifle, though, and seems to give up nothing for speed of ball.

[Canuck Bob]

Thanks Daryl.  I'm particularly happy to hear about your success with patched balls.  There is no doubt I'll use your experience to work up a load or two.  The PH Enfield brand was well travelled.  There was a transition phase when PH transfered the copyright and manufacture of the brand to Italy but continued to make barrels for them.  I understand an American firm still utilizes the PH brand and Italian sources.

Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours.  I really appreciate yours and Taylor's advice and guidance. Someday I might even abandon muzzleloading rifles and try a smoothbore you keep talking about!

[Daryl]

You are most Welcome, Bob. Never abandon the rifle. Smoothbores are a lot of fun to shoot with patched balls, but hitting at longer ranges beyond the smoothbore's

capability, are needed. Many "old" guys switch to smooth bores-only shooting, perhaps due to eye-sight constraints, or for the built-in alibi for missing.

[Huntschool]

Daryl:

Hey, watch it with the "old guy" stuff, no, wait, I have a smooth rifle in.62 on the way.... Heck, never mind....  LOL

[Canuck Bob]

I pulled the trigger on a first gen PH P61 Artillery Carbine.  It should arrive this week.  It is very low shot count and the pictures are nice.  I'm an old militia Gunner from the Canadian Artillery.  Even though not officially the Royal Canadian Artillery it is to me.  Folks who own the many Italian Enfields are generally happy owners but the PH owners are convincing in their accolades.

The rifle comes with a Lee Minie mold but I don't know which one.  Fun times ahead with a repro piece of history.

[Daryl]

Many of the different makes of Minnie moulds cast bullets with VERY thin skirts.  This thin skirt pretty much demands pistol-type loads or gross inaccuracy results form blown skirts.

Lyman recognized this and addressed this 'failing' by bringing out it's #577611 Minnie mould with a VERY thick skirt.

Armed with this knowledge and since I was working with a .58 rifle at that time, I thickened the skirts on a number of Lyman Minnie moulds and achieved exceptional (I thought) accuracy

of 2" to 2 1/2" at 100yards with them, shooting loads up to 165gr. 2f powder. This was in the 70's mind you, with really poor quality powder.

Patched rounds balls were slightly more accurate in this 66" twist, 1 1/8" octagonal Bill Large Barrel, but even they demanded 140gr. of that powder to shoot well.

Patched round balls shot very well in the PH Enfield rifles I played with, prior to the late 1970's. I did have to replace the front sights with higher blades. IIRC- I slotted the base and soldered

in higher blades, then filed to hit centre. One rifle, a 2-band I think it was, needed a flat blade soldered to the back of the rear sight, then V'd as the factory notch shot 2" right at 25 yards.

[stuart cee dub]

Hi Bob ,
Most of the serious rifle musket shooters hunt the old parker hales .
They shoot the Minnie balls well the trick is of course to find which mold works .

I bought an ArmiSport 1861 years ago and basically ended up rebuilding it to get it to shoot competitively . Luckily someone is always parting out an original on ebay and you can buy progressive depth barrels newly made from Whitacre machine

In the end it would have been cheaper to hunt for a nice Parker Hale.

I will say it is a pleasure to shoot the Minies they load fast and can be as accurate at a round ball.
The musketoons make great deer rifles.

One aside Per Canadian law percussion guns are considered modern rifles , flint on the other hand is not and not stringently regulated worth knowing if your going north to the Grandmother country .   
   

[Daryl]

Seems to me, all the Parker Hale's are marked PH on the lock plate, I think. The Italian guns have the makers Italian name on the top of the barrel - mine did.

[Obi2winky]

Daryl is right. I have a first generation Parker Hale 2 band and there is no Italian marking anywhere in the rifle. I have seen the Italian Parker Hales and they he the Italian marking on the trigger guard. Also there’s a way to tell with serial numbers as well, but I don’t the serials.

[Bob Roller]

The locks on some of them,both English and Italian are an abomination.
STIFF mainsprings and there IS a difference between STIFF and strong.
Strong is still limber and it can be felt while cycling the lock and stiff is
just that and can be felt.The worst thing I find on them is the sear pivot screw
usually fits like a broom handle in a garbage can and when the trigger is pulled
it lifts the arm of the sear up at an angle before the tip of the sear disengages
the full cock on the tumbler.The tip of the sear rotates to one side before it releases
in other words. I have owned a number of CW rifles and none of the old ones were
shoddy and had well fitted parts.

Bob Roller