Author Topic: Lock position: Looking for your thoughts  (Read 1999 times)

Offline BarryE

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Lock position: Looking for your thoughts
« on: November 16, 2018, 04:02:04 PM »
I am working on a smoothrifle (20ga).  The barrel has an 1 1/8" breech.  The breech plug has 1/2" of threads and is properly seated on the shoulder.  My problems is this: The position of the White Lightning liner will cause the fence for the pan to be 1/4" in front of the breech.  It is a 5/16" liner.  I know that there is a idea that dishing out the breech plug face to meet the coned out liner is not preferred.  A smaller liner (1/4 ") only saves an additional 1/32 of an inch.  How do all of you deal with this issue?

Offline smart dog

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Re: Lock position: Looking for your thoughts
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2018, 04:27:34 PM »
Hi Barry,
The short answer is that I don't worry about it.  I position the vent hole so that the liner is fully in front of the face of the breech plug and if that means there is a small shoulder of wood connecting the breech to the back of the pan, so be it.  There is nothing wrong with cutting a cavity in the face of the breech plug that allows the vent hole to be moved backward if you want the fence to line up with the end of the barrel.  In my experience, I would rather cut a fully radiused powder chamber into the plug rather than simply a notch for the vent hole.  That will increase the force of the powder charge and provide a space for fouling to be pushed and wiped keeping the vent hole clear.  Often on original guns, the breech plug threads were shorter allowing the lock to be moved back. You will also see notched plugs and those with powder chambers.

dave
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Lock position: Looking for your thoughts
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2018, 04:51:16 PM »
I don't worry about it either. If it bothers you start breeching your barrels with a 3/8" breech plugs like the originals.
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Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Lock position: Looking for your thoughts
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2018, 05:51:23 PM »
As above, but if you use a larger lock, like the Chambers R-Faced English, this can help as well. 
(Centre of pan to back of flash fence greater than some with this lock.)

Offline BarryE

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Re: Lock position: Looking for your thoughts
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2018, 05:58:33 PM »
Pukka- On this build I am following the style of a particular maker who forged his own locks so I am sort of compelled to stick with his look.  I formed the lockplate from Chamber's gunmakers kit.

Offline Ron Scott

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Re: Lock position: Looking for your thoughts
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2018, 06:07:00 PM »
The notion that a lock has to have its fence align with the back edge of the barrel is an idea of contemporary building. The majority of eighteenth century European Rifles have a gap as much as 1/4 inch.

Offline BarryE

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Re: Lock position: Looking for your thoughts
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2018, 08:04:00 PM »
Thanks to all.  Mike Brooks - I have no interest in weakening the breech/breech plug.  3/8" is a bit skimpy to me, although it seemed to work for them. I was interested in hearing yours, and others thoughts. Do you use the larger liners in the heavier barrels?

Offline Scota4570

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Re: Lock position: Looking for your thoughts
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2018, 08:15:33 PM »
A recent "Muzzle Blasts" featured a very fancy rifle by Tongus (sp).  He put he liner squarely in the treads of the plug like CVA. 

It would have advantages and disadvantages.   You could put the liner any where you want.  It would also eliminated the bump you feel while cleaning from the liner.   Some worry that  the plug index must be perfect to re-install the liner, when you pull the plug. 

I would not notch a plug.  I am obsessive.  Others with more experience have no qualms. 
« Last Edit: November 16, 2018, 08:16:34 PM by Scota4570 »

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Lock position: Looking for your thoughts
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2018, 08:35:11 PM »
Thanks to all.  Mike Brooks - I have no interest in weakening the breech/breech plug.  3/8" is a bit skimpy to me, although it seemed to work for them. I was interested in hearing yours, and others thoughts. Do you use the larger liners in the heavier barrels?

I pretty universally use a 5/16" white lighnin' liner. I position it so the liner threads just brush the face of the breech plug. I have found this position helps clean fouling off the breech face and increases reliability. original guns have the fence about anywhere, nothing constant and it didn't seem bother the old timers.
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Lock position: Looking for your thoughts
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2018, 08:51:16 PM »
I use 5/16" Chambers' liners too, and install them so that the liner threads just touch the face of the plug.  The lock plate will fall where it may, with the pan centered on the vent hole.  In this D weight .50 cal barrel, you can see the liner's threads have broken through the plug threads, and you can also see that the vent liner installed is short of the bore.  In a 20 gauge smoothy, you may need to trim the inside length of the liner threads so that they do not interfere with the cleaning jag.








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« Last Edit: November 16, 2018, 08:52:24 PM by D. Taylor Sapergia »
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Offline jerrywh

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Re: Lock position: Looking for your thoughts
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2018, 09:13:32 PM »
 I doubt if anybody knows more about this than Ron Scott.
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline BarryE

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Re: Lock position: Looking for your thoughts
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2018, 11:35:07 PM »
Great replies from some of the best.  Many thanks!

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Lock position: Looking for your thoughts
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2018, 06:38:40 AM »
It sounds like the vent hole has been considered so now you might want to also think about where the front lock nail-bolt-screw will be so you cam miss the bottom of the barrel and going through into the RR hole.

Offline M. E. Pering

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Re: Lock position: Looking for your thoughts
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2018, 07:45:44 AM »
Actually, if you look at many of the London makers of the period, they did dish the breech plug face in many instances in order for the back of the pan to line up with the breech.  American makers often tended to just shorten the breech plug, which would be more of a safety concern, as it should be, today.  But most American rifles are all over the place with where the back of the lock pan hit, and it just didn't seem to be important to them.  In the past, I try to position my liners like Mr. Sapergia demonstrates in his photos.  It is not incorrect for American arms.

As Smylee Grouch mentioned though, the position of that front lock bolt is important.  This is best to get perfect if at all possible... Right between the barrel inlet and ramrod hole.  Get it slightly low, and you will have to index and modify your bolt.  Slightly to high, and you will have to groove the bottom of the barrel.  Either of these scenarios is not tragic, unless done to the extreme, but they can be dealt with.  Also consider where you want those threads to exit the lock plate.  Some find it aesthetically disturbing not to have the bolt centered in the lock plate.  So you really have to be thinking about all of these things simultaneously when laying out where you want the lock to go.  Good luck.

M. E. Pering

Offline Goo

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Re: Lock position: Looking for your thoughts
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2018, 03:19:20 PM »
I am working on a smoothrifle (20ga).  The barrel has an 1 1/8" breech.  The breech plug has 1/2" of threads and is properly seated on the shoulder.  My problems is this: The position of the White Lightning liner will cause the fence for the pan to be 1/4" in front of the breech.  How do all of you deal with this issue?

Widen the fence pan but drill and tap all the lock plate holes first
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