Author Topic: Using heat  (Read 1947 times)

Ephraim Cooper

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Using heat
« on: April 08, 2019, 11:15:35 AM »
I am currently trying to build a stock for my P53 Enfield.  It is going quite well but I have come across a problem.

The fore-end has started to twist.  Now I don't know if it is my poor workmanship or if the wood has not been dried properly.  I bought a blank of beech which was described as "kiln dried".  I have heard anecdotal stories that this can sometimes cause problems and may have done so here.

I have been told by a member, Pukka Bundook, that using heat can help straighten out the stock and wondered if anyone here has had any luck using this method.  I have seen on a Youtube channel "EngelsCoachShop"( which I heartily recommend) a skilled coachwright actually bending wood using a oxy-acetelene torch.  This seems to me to be something far beyond my competence and would like to know if it is something that I could do without ruining what I have already achieved.

Offline Jeff Durnell

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Re: Using heat
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2019, 01:17:05 PM »
Flat straight lumber can be made from crooked, or twisted trees, or parts of trees that are from the side that transitions from the tension side to the compression side. So sometimes, due to how it grew, wood is under tension inside, even though it was dried and milled straight, and then as you remove wood during a project, that is, wood that was helping to stabilize it, it then is permitted to wander. Sometimes it can be corrected with heat.

Wood is made maleable with heat. Being new to gun making, I haven't done it to a gun stock, yet, but have done it literally hundreds of times to various species wood used for bows and arrows where precise alignment is critical. Since I'm quite familiar with it, I wouldn't hesitate if that's what I thought a gun needed and I calculated it could be pulled off. Various sources of heat can be used depending on the condition of the wood and the desired effects. I made a steamer for a few dollars that I've used a lot over the years, usually on unseasoned/green wood... mainly because dry heat can open check/cracks in wet wood. When the wood needing corrected was isolated to a small area, I have also steamed it over a kettle of boiling water on the stove. BUT for dry seasoned wood like a gun stock should be, I usually use a heat gun. It can get dry wood very hot and bendable without checking... or scorching as a torch would be prone to do.

Basically you want to keep the heat gun several inches away, keep it moving over and around the area to be bent until it's hot enough you can't hold it in your hand, maybe go a minute longer, then make the correction, overcorrecting about 5% because it will spring back a little, and hold it there until thoroughly cooled throughout. It should move relatively easy if it's soft/hot enough. Don't force it or its likely to break or crack. And hey, I don't want to be responsible if it does  :P

Lzymtlsmth

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Re: Using heat
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2019, 02:37:44 PM »
I’ve had a couple stocks ( precarves)That did that I was lucky enough to do the final barrel inletting & left the barrel in the wood as much as I could. Once the barrel was in for a while they “set” to the barrel and it wasn’t a problem . I guess it depends on the severity of the twist. The ones I had had a noticeable curve.
Kent

Offline yulzari

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Re: Using heat
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2019, 03:06:55 PM »
Ephraim. The basic concept is to soften the lignin 'glue' holding the wood fibres together. Traditionally done with boiling water or steam so as to not overheat and burn the wood but hot air evidently does but I would be worried about getting the heat right into the wood without burning using a heat gun but then I have not tried that method. I do recall that, late in the Peninsula War, some light infantry complained that their late pattern Baker Rifle stocks were too straight (I know mine is) and Ordnance had them steamed and bent to allow a little more drop. In a butt the stock is unsupported and is said to slowly straighten back over months/years but your fore end is supported by the barrel so that should not be a problem. I would choose to use steam myself but I have never straightened a fore end as yet (inshallah). Good luck.

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Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: Using heat
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2019, 04:06:16 PM »
I have posted this before, I am primarily a bow maker and have bent more wood than I can remember.

I sent a blank to a place to have a TN rifle precarve done, they lost my barrel and sent it back sans barrel which caused a 30 degree downward dog leg in the forestock.

I heated the barrel to what I would guess was around 190 and put it in the stock while I heated the forstock with my heat gun. The idea was to have the hot barrel hold heat in the barrel inlet while I heated the outside.

I could feel the wood relax as I heated it and easily pulled the forstock back to where it belonged, it was already shaped somewhat and fairly thin. I put 4 or 5 zip ties around the forestock and barrel and continued to heat the wood until I could only hold my hand on it for a couple of seconds. I held the heat gun at a distance and kept it moving so as not to scorch the wood.

I wrapped an old Tee shirt around the barrel and forestock to hold the heat and left it overnight to cool. In the morning my forestock was back where it belonged and solid as rock, no dogleg.

I use my heat gun so much I made a holster to put it in between heating sessions on bows, this prevents a lot of accidental burns to the wrist and fingers that I used get with the heat gun loose on my workbench.





« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 04:11:17 PM by Eric Krewson »

Offline Long John

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Re: Using heat
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2019, 05:33:56 PM »
Ephraim,

Kiln dried wood is generally 8% water by weight.  That water is "bound water" that serves to attach adjacent wood fibers together.  The wood fibers are made up from long polymeric molecules called cellulose and polymeric molecules called lignin until the structure is similar to a ladder.  You can envision a wood fiber as being a large pile of ladders laying parallel to each other that are held together with numerous bungee cords between adjacent ladders, not around the whole pile.  The water molecules in wood are like those bungee cords.

When you heat wood to a temperature close to the boiling point of water, the water molecules between the wood fibers become mobile.  This allows adjacent wood fibers to slide past one another when bending force is applied.  As the wood cools the water molecules settle done into new locations an resume the role of "intermolecular glue".  So heat can be used to cause wood to bend.  Heated hot pipes are used by guitar and banjo makers to bend the wood sides of the guitar body and the banjo rim (or "pot").  However, using heat to bend wood is an art - to much or not enough heat and too much tension or not enough can lead to failure.  Steaming wood is another method used to obtain a bend.  The steam supplies the heat as well as extra water.

There are lots of guns out there with twisted or bent fore-stocks that are using the barrel as a solid surface to stay straight.  A fore-stock is a thin piece of wood that will take a lot of bend and will eventually have a barrel to keep it in line.  Heat bending might not be necessary.

Good Luck.

Best Regards,
JMC
John Cholin

Online Daryl

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Re: Using heat
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2019, 08:47:04 PM »
Really well explained, John - well done.
Daryl

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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Using heat
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2019, 11:46:26 PM »
I recently put a bend to a pistol rod to keep it from falling out. Used the gas cook stove for heat.

Dan
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Using heat
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2019, 11:48:22 PM »
Thanks. I knew how to bend the wood but now I have a better idea of the "mechanism" that allows it.

Dan
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Offline jerrywh

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Re: Using heat
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2019, 01:11:57 AM »
  You are getting some good advice here. The one thing I would add is that you do not need water.  I have bent both bows and gun stocks for a long time off and on through the years.  I usually heat the wood to about 250° F  to 325°F after Giving it enough time to heat clear through depending on how thick it is you can bend it permanently.  I have used oil but it is isn't  necessary.  just heat will do it. Then let it cool.  A good friend of mine is Steve Nelson. Steve is a member of the American custom gun makers guild. He has bent guns worth in the $100,000.00  to $200,000.00 range and then bent them back again With out any problems. A handy tool  is a infra red pyrometer to check the temp with. That might prevent you from over heating the wood and burning it. You can buy one on Ebay for about $30.00. We bent this stock 1 1/2" more drop and 1/2" castoff.
   Here we are bending a custom muzzle loader. Forget the oil.
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Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Using heat
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2019, 04:26:21 AM »
I know the author of this website and can tell you that it would be hard to find anyone on this side of the pond that knows more about the Enfield. He even studied those available in the museum in London, not to mention the many in his, and his brother's personal collection. Doesn't help you with your stock issue, but honestly unless your original stock is missing or broken, I would just refinish it to the correct shape. It's what I did, and it passed his scrutiny.

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Ephraim Cooper

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Re: Using heat
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2019, 12:23:14 PM »
Thank you all for the most detailed advice.

It looks like I will have to put an infra-red pyrometer on my shopping list.  The heat gun I already have,  I never thought of using it though.

The reason I started this topic is a seemingly recurrent one as far as I am concerned.  Some of you might know that I recently refurbished one of IMAs "parts guns" using a bought-in stock.  That too had a twist at the fore-end.  I used boiling water applications and did manage to get the worst of the twist out.  As Long John has said putting the barrel in took the rest of the curve out and it is now, after a few months, pretty much straight.  This time the twist was larger and I didn't think my previous method would work.  Hence to post.

Using the pyrometer will, hopefully, stop me from messing up the stock.  I will let you know how I get on.

Thanks again.

Offline shifty

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Re: Using heat
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2019, 02:56:51 AM »
I am currently trying to build a stock for my P53 Enfield.  It is going quite well but I have come across a problem.

The fore-end has started to twist.  Now I don't know if it is my poor workmanship or if the wood has not been dried properly.  I bought a blank of beech which was described as "kiln dried".  I have heard anecdotal stories that this can sometimes cause problems and may have done so here.

I have been told by a member, Pukka Bundook, that using heat can help straighten out the stock and wondered if anyone here has had any luck using this method.  I have seen on a Youtube channel "EngelsCoachShop"( which I heartily recommend) a skilled coachwright actually bending wood using a oxy-acetelene torch.  This seems to me to be something far beyond my competence and would like to know if it is something that I could do without ruining what I have already achieved.
   


   That you-tube channel you mentioned Engles Horse Drawn Vehicles is great i watch it often highly recommend it.