Baked fouling

[Rick_1011]

Hi all, I seem to be having issues with some nasty baked on fouling near the powder charge. Its in a new .54 rice barrel with round bottom rifling. Ive tried .530 and .535 balls along with patching material from .018 pillow ticking to .022 bull denim. Im using goex 2F and have tried 70 to 110 grains. As far as lube goes I've tried spit, mink oil, hoppes, and ballistol/water. After the first shot the ball goes down pretty easy until I get about 1/4 inch from the charge then I have to tap my rod with a mallet to seat the ball and hit my mark on the ramrod. Accuracy seems decent at least to 50 yards. I would feel more comfortable if I can at least be able to load a couple shots in row for hunting situations. Both pics are after 2 shots. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[Flint62Smoothie]

How are you cleaning it? And oiling the bore after shooting?

[Mad Monk]

Rick,

I see you are located in Pennsylvania.  I live in Berks County in the south eastern part of the state.
Looking at your photo of the between shot swab when pulled out of the barrel.
That fouling is NOT baked.  It is simply dry as can be seen by it falling apart in chunks on the cloth.
Watch the weather when you shoot.  Here in PA we have been going through a period of weather a good bit colder than normal.  Temperatures well below normal for this time of year.  Very little moisture in the air.  With cold powder charges in cold barrels you get less bore fouling than charges fired at higher temperatures and warmer powder charges.  But what you get in the bore is a very dry fouling.
You are shooting GOEX bp.  GOEX is a "dry burning" powder.  Meaning it produces no water as a product of combustion.  When you fire the gun and the projectile leaves the barrel there is a sudden inrush of outside air with the rapid pressure drop in the barrel.  At higher air temperatures with more moisture in the air the inrush acts to moisten the fouling in the bore.  But with cold weather there is actually very little moisture in the air.
Then watch when you shoot early morning hours versus mid afternoon.  As these Winter days heat up the relative humidity actually drops.  Even less moisture in the air available to moisten the bore fouling.  Dry fouling clinging to the bore is noted for what you are seeing.
I used to go out in our state's primitive weapon season after Christmas. Some years with colder than normal temps and low humidity this inability to get a second shot seated in a hurry without damp swabbing the bore was always a problem. 
Sometimes new barrels are noted for fouling problems such as you are seeing.  When I was building Schimmel rifles I was using Getz barrels.  Dixon had filled me in on lapping the barrels I was using.  Wrapping four O steel wool around a cleaning jag and loading it up with a light lubricating oil and running that up and down the bore 400 times to lap the barrel.  Otherwise it took a lot of shooting to lap the bore with the cloth patches around the lead balls.
For between shot cleaning patches you might want to cotton to cotton flannel cloth.  The heavy stuff as is used in winter pajamas.  I would wash the fabric and cut it up into squares.  When out shooting I would pop one in my mouth and load it up with saliva then swab the bore with it.  With the dry fouling the wet, rather than damp, cleaning patch would dissolve the dry fouling rather quickly.  Or simply carry wet ones in a plastic or tin container.

But keep your eye on the temperature and relative humidity at the time you are shooting.

Bill K.

[Darkhorse]

I had the same problem with my .40 caliber Rice barrel. I could shoot twice but thereafter had to use a mallet. I tried LeHigh Valley Original patch lube and it just cut right through that hard, dry fouling.
If you can't find LeHigh Valley then try Mr. Flintlock's Lube, the formula is supposed to be the same for both. I like it just as good as LHV. Both these lubes are great for target shooting or  plinking but not for hunting as they dry out to quick.

[snapper]

How wet  are you patches for the round ball?

I use a patch that is wetted with moose milk.  My patches are very damp, and clean the barrel as I load the RB.  I shoot all day without wiping.

Fleener

[Daryl]

With a .535" ball and .022" denim patching, you are just barely getting to the bottom of the grooves, if your bore is exactly .540". The rifling, if round Rice cut, is about .016" deep, thus measures .572" groove to groove if even numbered. Your .535" ball and .022" (compressed) denim patch measures .579" numerically, thus there should be .0335" compression in the bottom of each groove.

This combination is tight enough, that you should be able to shoot all day, any weather, rain, shine, cold or hot, IF you are using enough of the oil or grease black powder lubes to keep the fouling soft.

Not being able to make the rod's mark when loading the 3rd shot, is not normal. After 10 or 20 - most assuredly.

If you wish to see my loading regime with a .45 rifle, .445" ball and .022" patch AFTER 50 shots with no wiping, send me your e-mail address in a private message and I will send you an M-4 short video. We took the video of Hatch Jack and myself loading our guns - his a 20 bore smoothbore, mine a .45 rifle. This was at the end of a day's shooting. of approximately 50 shots. It might have been 60 shots, or 45- don't remember.  None of us has to wipe and we ALWAYS ensure the ball is on the powder.  I have found, when using the short starter as noted in the video, that my velocities were much more consistent and averaged 100fps higher than if only seated using the rod down to the powder.  The reason for this is due to the light, but consistent compression of the powder charge with exactly the same 'smack' on the starter's knob. I've been loading this way for many years now.

[Rick_1011]

Thank you all for the helping me out! I will definitely try everything recommended. As far as cleaning, I use the flushing system from Track with warm water and a drop of dish liquid. After drying I run a patch with WD 40. I run an endoscope down the bore after every cleaning just to make sure I didn't miss anything. I always run a dry patch or 2 before loading but the last couple times I tried a patch with denatured alcohol followed by a couple dry patches to ensure no oils were remaining in the bore.

[bgf]

I found that some oily lubes would in fact bake on in that area above the powder charge.  There were slivers of black plastic looking stuff in the grooves.  They were very thin so that they could not be felt with a patch, but as I shot more shots, that area would build up fouling fast, quickly getting rough.  Steel wool and scotchbrite pads didn't remove the problem, just smoothed it out.  Eventually I got desperate and used some heavy duty oven cleaner (with lye), and the slivers came out within a few swipes. 

Using lye or oven cleaner isn't something I'll recommend, just what I did.  The first thing to check is to use the borescope after cleaning and see if there is some minute residue in that area of the grooves...

[Joc7651]

First, is it there after cleaning with very hot soapy water? Second, try Angelus mink oil paste. It's made to treat boots and leather but works better than anything I've ever seen as patch lube. I've never had an issue like this, and it keeps fouling soft. After loading the ball my bore looks like it was just cleaned. It's worth a try. I get it on eBay, it's cheap and lasts a good while. It's about $5 for an 8 oz container. I've known more than a few people with many more years shooting than me use clear Kiwi shoe polish as patch lube.

[Rick_1011]

It cleans up with a couple of wet patches of tracks black powder solvent. I have to push the cleaning rod and almost break it up along with using a breech scraper to get out anything that pushed down. Next time out I will try more lube on my patches. I feel like I'm using enough but with a longer barrel it might be almost squeezing out by the time the ball reaches the charge. I will also experiment with some different lubes.

[Joc7651]

If your barrel doesn't come off easily a flushing nipple and hose would work wonders when cleaning. You can draw hot water up into the fouling to soften it before your cleaning patch gets down to it. It's a nipple that has a hose connected to it. The hose goes into a jar or large bowl of hot soapy water.
I shoot a couple custom made slow twist .54's with 36" barrels, and both like heavy charges best. Give the Angelus a try and I'm sure you'd love it. I used Bore Butter before it and there's no comparison. Also after you have it cleaned thouroughly and dry. Run a dry patch down the bore without anything coating the bore. Pay close attention for resistance in that area of your barrel. If there is you have a rough spot. If you do lap the bore with JBs Bore Paste to polish it out. Fouling will always stick to the rough spots. You can also try coating your bore with patch lube before you load and shoot the first shot until it smoothies out. I think a new barrel always shoots better after a couple hundred shots go through it. That's when they come on and show what they can do.

[OldMtnMan]

Rick..........You say you tried Mink Oil and hopefully, it was from TOW and not leather treatment which is inferior.

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/132/1/MINK-OIL

[Rick_1011]

The mink oil I have is from TOW. Any suggestions on the best way to apply it to patches? I have just been rubbing it in with my fingers.

[OldMtnMan]

That's how I do it but a lot of guys heat it up and soak the patches in it. Then wring them out. Seems like too much Mink Oil but it must work for them.

[Daryl]

When testing Track's Mink Oil in my .32, I found the 60th shot loaded, ie: pushed down onto the powder more easily than the first one did. No wiping during the day's shooting.

I can only surmise by this, the residual WD 40 and mink oil were not  compatible, but after that fist shot, loading wend from easy, to easier. I was shooting 40gr. 3F GOEX in the .32.

[OldMtnMan]

What state are you from Daryl? Do you have high humidity?

I'm thinking the low humidity is part of the reason I can't load as tight a patch as you do. Colorado is dry as a bone.

[Daryl]

I find no, as in zero difference shooting at Helfley Creek(Rendezvous B.C.) Rendezvous at 6% humidity and 90F as I do here when it is raining and from 85% to 90% humidity at from 40F to 90F.

The only difference ibeing with a flinter and I have to wipe out the pan due to almost instant water formulation after the shot- but loading is identical. With the cap guns, I see no difference at all.

[thecapgunkid]

Rick...It cleans up with a couple of wet patches of tracks black powder solvent. I have to push the cleaning rod and almost break it up along with using a breech scraper to get out anything that pushed down.

There's a boatload of good advice here as almost every time when our well intentioned members latch onto a topic.  Sometimes you gotta go through all the tangent info and sometimes there is too much advice, so read everything these guys write and follow your instincts and judgements.

Consider this;

As soon as you start forcing  your rod you are fighting with your gun, so don't do that.   I won't stand on my own solution as gospel, but I learned to lube my shots with a cleaner.  Then  nursing a very wet patch into that dry spot at the breech and gradually working it dissolves the gunk.  I'll do that every five shots on the trail walk.  Soaking a batch of flax tow and using a worm will also work for you, but that's hard to do on an eighteen shot trail.

I have also found that the hose and clamp thingy and using a wet patch when cleaning up after shooting will work it away quickly by drawing  the cleaner up the hose first and then pumping.  Hershel House points out, in his video, that these guns tend to foul back at the breech and, when you think of it, none of your lube is making it past the patched ball, so of course there will be a lot of fouling there.

The hose and clamp are so efficient that I never remove my barrel, work only with hot water and then use WD and light oil and a visit the next day.  On my personal guns I will also chisel a shallow groove opposite the lock to facilitate the clamp, but then again I don't produce works of art or exact copies of something in a museum....just guns that go off regularly and group with the right loads.

Seeing a show you got so many guys on this, steal all the knowledge you can.