Author Topic: Virginia question  (Read 4848 times)

jim m

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Virginia question
« on: June 11, 2009, 01:28:41 AM »
what would be correct for a pre 1800 Virginia rifle, brass or iron furniture

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Virginia question
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2009, 02:29:23 AM »
What area or school of virginia? 1660 or 1799?
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jim m

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Re: Virginia question
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2009, 02:44:51 AM »
-the southern part of virginia and last quarter of 18th century, also any books you would recomend that I could research.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2009, 02:46:03 AM by jim m »

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Virginia question
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2009, 02:51:43 AM »
I want to see one of those 1660 Virginia rifles. ;D

The "correct" question is really a Pandora's box.  Once you open it up and look inside, all manner of things appear.  Mostly conundrums, really, except for later, well-documented rifles, which can be sorted out pretty easily.

Unfortunately, many kit suppliers etc have provided great components sets but just labeled them "Virginia" and offer them with brass or steel mounts, and these kits are pretty generic and poorly documented.  Rarely will one say, "This is based on such and such a rifle believed to have been made here at this date, and it clearly belongs to the XX school."  The generic "Virginia" or "early Virginia" kits usually have well-designed stocks that will be easy to shoot, generous in the buttstock, with tall wide buttplates.  The trigger guards are the one part most likely to be derived from an actual Southern piece.  If you build such a kit up and put a shell or lobed design carving behind the tang, "voila!" you have what most folks would call a Virginia rifle.

We all wish there were books full of well-documented Virginia rifles from 1750s-1790's, but they'd be fantasy books because there just aren't that many rifles of that vintage that can be nailed down as from Virginia.

Andover, Vermont

Offline Stophel

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Re: Virginia question
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2009, 04:00:18 AM »
Careful, lest ye anger the Virginia Rifle Gods.

...was that thunder?

 :-[
« Last Edit: June 11, 2009, 04:07:02 AM by Stophel »
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

jim m

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Re: Virginia question
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2009, 09:15:21 AM »
oh $#@*, I've steped in it again   :o :P

Offline G-Man

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Re: Virginia question
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2009, 01:21:46 PM »
Jim - there is a lot of misinformation out there if you base your decision on what some of the kit suppliers websites and catalogs tell you.  There is getting to be better information out there - Jim Chambers gives good descriptions on their  website.

And as the other guys pointed out, it depends on where and when within Virginia.

There are quite a few surviving brass mounted rifles believed to be from the 1770-1780s from the areas of Virginia from Rockbridge and Augusta Counties on north, over into and down the Shenandoah Valley.  You would be safe going with brass mounts for a rifle like this.

For iron mounted guns, there are a number of guns with iron mounts (most with stepped wrists) that are believed to have been made in southwestern Virginia that look to be from the 1790-1800 period.  (Or call it the Appalachian region, etc. possibly as far north as Botetourt County and the James headwaters area to as far south and west as Tennessee - remember East TN was settled beginning in the late 1760s and there are references to guns being made there by around 1790 if not earlier.) Unfortunately, the examples I know of are not signed.  There are some of these surviving guns that show some makers worked in iron or brass - that is, unsigned iron guns and brass mounted guns that look strongly like they  came from the same shop.  For what it's worth, iron furnaces began to pop up a lot in that region beginning in the 1790s, although that just may be a coincidence.

There are a few other iron mounted guns that have earlier looking architecture, but few strong regional style clues, like the iron mounted piece in RCA or the "Old Holston Gun."   They are suspected to be from the region and to pre-date 1790 by some.

So for an Appalachian region gun, 1790s and later, iron or brass mounts are probably correct.  Earlier?  Maybe a few iron, but who knows?  I suspect they didn't wake up in 1795 and invent iron mounts all of a sudden so I believe there were a few around - the style or preference originated somewhere.  But that is just my opinion.  For other parts of Virginia, and the pre-1790 era, I would go with brass as the surviving examples really strongly indicate that.

Guy

« Last Edit: June 11, 2009, 03:51:00 PM by Guy Montfort »

Offline Ed Wenger

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Re: Virginia question
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2009, 03:35:31 PM »
Jim...

     You asked for some books that might be of help...  Besides RCA I & II, which give some good examples, Gunsmiths of Virginia by James Whisker and Long Rifles of Virginia by James Butler, Jr and James Whisker might be of help.  If I recall correctly, most (by far), regardless of the region attributed to the gun, where brass mounted.  Hope that helps......

                     Ed
Ed Wenger

Offline G-Man

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Re: Virginia question
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2009, 04:08:19 PM »
I can't remember which one it is - I think it is "Longrifles of Virginia" but not sure - that shows a couple of the iron mounted pieces I was referring to, with the stepped wrists, that look to be from around 1790 to 1800.   One is the gun that is in MESDA and Wallace attributes to the James headwaters area.



Guy
« Last Edit: June 11, 2009, 04:11:44 PM by Guy Montfort »

Offline Pete G.

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Re: Virginia question
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2009, 07:13:03 PM »
Seems like all the kits offered as Va rifles put together some early architecture with iron furniture. Try as I might I cannot find and guns in Kindig, RCA, or "Gunsmiths of Virginia" that really meet those specifications.