Hawken 1/2 stock plans

[45-110]

Is there a "good" set of build plans available that show the tapered side lock panels, 1 1/8" barrel and showing documentation to a particular original rifle? The more details and dimensions shown of the stock furniture the better. What possible source has a full size drawing(s) of this sort?
thanks
kw

[wapiti22]

Try Track of the Wolf

they have lots of full size plans 

[Huntschool]

The Hawken Shop (I think).... not cheap

[sqrldog]

If you can find a set of Hawken plans by Wayne Robideaux(sp) you will have plans taken from a Hawken in a museum in Nebraska.

[ScottH]

Try contacting Don Stith

[redheart]

I have both the Stith plans and the Hawken Shoppe  plans and love them both!

[45-110]

The Hawken shop seems to offer their rifle/kit with a 1 inch barrel, so I question if their plans would have the larger barrel size(s) shown?  Where would I find a set of Wayne Robideaux's plans? I want a quality set of build prints showing early and late features, a true take off of an original(s) rifle, not a generic rendering showing L&R or Davis parts. I have Don Stiths Dimick rifle print....adequate but still a little short on detail. Wonder where John Bairds sketches and dimensions are that you see in his book?
I have a large size 6 page set of mylar machinists drawings of a late Hawken that I acquired around 1975, but there is no documentation or reference to a particular rifle.
best KW

So maybe I need Wayne Robideaux's drawing

[Herb]

45-110:  See  americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=40680.0.  In Antique Gun Collecting board, "Robidoux" Hawken in Lincoln, NE by Herb July 06, 2016.

[Mtn Meek]

The Hawken shop seems to offer their rifle/kit with a 1 inch barrel, so I question if their plans would have the larger barrel size(s) shown?  Where would I find a set of Wayne Robideaux's plans? I want a quality set of build prints showing early and late features, a true take off of an original(s) rifle, not a generic rendering showing L&R or Davis parts. I have Don Stiths Dimick rifle print....adequate but still a little short on detail. Wonder where John Bairds sketches and dimensions are that you see in his book?
I have a large size 6 page set of mylar machinists drawings of a late Hawken that I acquired around 1975, but there is no documentation or reference to a particular rifle.
best KW

So maybe I need Wayne Robideaux's drawing

Not sure where you are getting your information about The Hawken Shop rifle/kit having a 1" barrel.  Their website clearly states their kit includes a 1-1/8" to 1" tapered barrel with a 1:48 twist.

http://www.thehawkenshop.com/Products/Hawken-Rifle-Kit__H1.aspx

You say you "want a quality set of build prints showing early and late features, a true take off of an original(s) rifle".  That sounds like a strange objective.  You want prints of an original rifle that has both early and late features?

Wayne Robidoux passed some time ago.  Some of his heirs advertised the sale of his Hawken prints back in April 2014 issue of Muzzle Blasts which I show below.  I suggest you try calling the number in the ad if you want a set of his prints.



I've posted samples of Robidoux's prints before in this thread http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=40680.0

That thread also has photos by Herb of the rifle that Robidoux copied that's in the Nebraska History Museum.

You can compare the images I posted to the 6 page set you have and see if they are the same which is possible since Robidoux's blue prints was a 6 page set.

Without a doubt, Wayne Robidoux's set of prints are the best and most detailed for a late S. Hawken rifle.

Other options are the Hawken Shop prints which aren't as detailed but still are drawn from an original Hawken.  Then there is the Bridger rifle plans from Track of the Wolf that are indirectly based on the Jim Bridger Hawken rifle in the Montana Historical Society collection.  I say indirectly because they duplicate the late S. Hawken rifle that GRRW made post-1976, which was patterned after the Bridger original.  The Track plans I refer to are PLAN-HAWKEN, though I see these are presently out of stock.  Ignore the full stock drawings on these plans as they are not drawn from an original and represent a generic full stock Hawken rifle as visualized in the 1970's.

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/304/1/PLAN-HAWKEN?PageSize=75

For an early J&S Hawken, the Log Cabin Shop has an EARLY HAWKEN RIFLE PRINT that is somewhat based on the Medina Hawken and the Leonard Hawken.

http://www.logcabinshop.com/catalog.php?path=188_148_94&product_id=27310

I see that while I was typing this that Herb posted a link to his thread which I referenced above.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I have a well used set of Wayne's plans that I bought when they were first advertised.  Please email me at dtaylorsapergia@gmail.com if you are interested in this set.

[45-110]

All:
thankyou for the replies, good to get this help. I did look at the  Robideaux pictures of his plans on this site and now see my mylar copies are the same. When I was in GM Fisher Body design 1970's, someone had a set so a couple of the draftsman re-drew them entirely on mylar to make shop copies. But they left off the title block with the credit/ref. info. I have built 3 rifles in past from them. The drawing though does not show any of the early features. I called the Hawken shop last week for 1 1/8" breech, said they did not have any, guess I assumed wrongly about their drawingthen . I have the Bridger and full stock plans, the Leonard rifle drawing from Log Cabin is worth looking into. Still curious about the rear tapered lock panels. Worse case I will use my saved photo library to guide this next build. I don't want a kit, just spent a week+ machining out the lock and triggers, today is trying to fab the trigger guard.
best
kw

[Mtn Meek]

I'm still confused.  Are you trying to make a late Hawken or an early Hawken because you mention both?

The late Hawken is the easiest to make because most of the commercial component parts are for a late Hawken and the Robidoux detail plans are for a late Hawken.

An early J&S Hawken is a different animal.  Don Stith is the only source for a correct J&S trigger guard.  A lot of people use a version of the "flat-to-wrist" guards, but the commercial versions leave a lot to be desired.  No one makes a correct J&S Hawken breech plug for an 1⅛" barrel.  You would have to make your own.  The Hawken Shop sells the old Griffith Tool Co. breech, but it's for a 1" barrel.  J&S Hawken rifles pretty much all have a butt plate that is hand-forged, two-piece brazed together like Mark Brier demonstrated making.  The nose caps on J&S Hawken rifles vary a lot, but often were made from sheet metal--none were cast like on the late S. Hawken.  The plans for a J&S Hawken rifle from the Log Cabin Shop are simplistic compared to the Robidoux plans.  The best aspect of them is that they give you a good stock profile and show the style of breech snail and lock often seen on original J&S Hawken rifles.  I don't think the Log Cabin Shop plans give him credit, but their plans were originally drawn by Curt Hemlepp in 1975.

You seem fixated on the "rear tapered lock panels".  This is a feature most common on the late S. Hawken rifles.  The amount of taper probably varies from rifle to rifle.  I think Herb has the figures for the Jim Bridger Hawken if you do a search of his old posts.  Someone likely has measured the taper on the Kit Carson Hawken lock panels.

Looking at the limited published data on J&S Hawken rifles, I found more of the early rifles with parallel lock panels than tapered lock panels.  I would refer you to John Baird's book for details.

The Hawken Shop has the molds and castings that Art Ressel developed when he owned the business, which includes a 1⅛" breech plug.  But you can only gets these parts in their kit.  They do not sell them individually.

Here is a picture of The Hawken Shop parts from back when Ressel owned the business.  Note that the nose cap on the left is for 1⅛" to 1" taper barrel and the nose cap on the right is for a 1" straight octagon barrel.

[45-110]

Phil Meek
I read your reply twice to digest it, your comments are valid. Not fixated on the tapered panels, but considered the feature for my 1 1/8" bbl on this build. I am just weighing my build (parts) options. Did not know its a "very" late feature unless a earlier known rifle can substantiate it. A 1 1/8" straight breech does not seem to be available with the early bolster, having just finished making the lock, triggers and guard, I just don't feel like machining up a breech.....at least not today. I have no problem making a 2 pc. buttplate (lighter weight), I have done a few. This may morph into something between "early" and "late". Will be ordering a .58 cal tapered barrel for sure, and using a hollow rib.....to shave a few ounces off. Over run with elk here, so this is going to be the ranch wapiti buster along with my last build the .54 Dimick.
The vast reference mat'l you and Herb post on this site is great! My problem is organizing it so I can refer to it coherently. The Hawken community sure needs a new book with clear pictures like the Sharps, Ballard, and Winchester boys have. For me Gordons book is out of my price range.
regards
kw

[Herb]

45-110:  Here is a full sized tracing of the Jim Bridger Hawken done by Greg Roberts at GRRW in 1975.  I made a copy of it for me, and added more detail.  The Bridger lock plate has its tail bent into the stock to make the taper.  I have seen this myself.  I measured this rifle at Helena, MT but cannot find my notes right now.  GRRW's gunsmith Carl Walker told me from memory how much he thought the panels tapered, shown on the label.  GRRW's copy of the Bridger rifle, No. 9, I measured as shown on the label.  I made my copy of the Bridger with a taper of 1.750 across the front of the lock panels and 1.550 at the rear, I no longer remember why.  Don't use Track of the Wolf's Bridger or Kit Carson Hawken rifle plans to be like the original rifles.

[Herb]

The photo of the Kit Carson rifle is from Jim Gordon's book "Great Gunmakers for the Early West, Vol III Western U.S."  He gave me permission to copy it.  I took his book to a print shop and asked them to make a full size copy, based on a barrel length of 31 1/4".  (It is actually 31 1/16" I now know).  The full sized plan is Track's Kit Carson plan.  One difference is that the Carson rifle has a trigger reach of 13 1/4" but Track's plan (and cut stock) is over 14 1/2".  Also, the escutcheons are placed wrong, stock forend too long, and the wrong entry pipe, wrong butt plate, etc.

The left sides.  Gordon's book showed the full left butt, but it was cut off in my enlargement.  Compare the lock panels.

My copy of the Jim Bridger rifle, nearly exact except my GRRW 1 1/8" barrel was shorter than Jim's.  My copy of the Carson rifle at bottom is as exactly like the photo as I could make it, there is distortion because my rifle is closer to the camera than the photo.



This is the best way I know to get a "plan" of an original rifle, if you have a full-sized photo and a known dimension such as barrel length, and permission to copy it.  Then you can measure the flat dimensions and compare your parts to the original.  Some (width) dimensions are determined by barrel width, thus nose cap, thus stock to the lock panels, which are determined by the lock (both sides), and the butt plate and triggers for stock depth.

[crankshaft]

Just a few pics of details  that may assist builders.


http://iowablackpowderfederation.net/news/2018/An%20Original%20Hawken%20Rifle%202018.pdf

[Herb]

Thanks for posting those photos, Crankshaft.
The dovetail for the original front sight of this rifle was filled in when the muzzle was cut off.  No Hawken I have seen (mostly photos) has a crowned muzzle.  The front sight looks like the one on the pistol grip Hawken in the Cody Firearms Museum which I photographed in December.  It had a tang mount for a sight there.  Pistol grip Hawken front sight.

Pistol grip Hawken muzzle.

Pistol grip Hawken tang base for sight.

Ditto, left lock panel.  Stock has been broken through the grip.

Lock side of the pistol grip.

[Herb]

Crankshaft, your rifle also had a tang mounted "peep" sight.  The hole for it shows in the second and eighth photos.  All Hawkens have a wood screw at the end of the trigger plate except the pistol grip models, which have short curved trigger plates.