Trade Gun ?

[keweenaw]

Simpson's LTD just posted this piece at their web site.  http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_info.php?products_id=12863&osCsid=6cfda410bb1940fb2548c84e14eb1a28

It's obviously not French and Indian, and I have no idea what is mean by the place names in their description:INDIAN TRADE MUSKET; 75 cal; good stock, 45'' barrel, Information from the previous owner: US French and Indian War Pennsylvania made musket. Sharttesville PA area Dale C Anderson, Gettysburg PA. Iron Lock and large trigger guard. Heavy brass tieplate. No buttplate fitted. Lock is in working condition. Heavy rust brown patina on metal. Believed to be a musket made for Indian trade. Ramrod could be the original. Caliber is approximate.,

Tom

[G-Man]

I think the name of the person in Gettysburg was the person who provided the information on the gun.  Although there were early settlements aound there like Conewago, Gettysburg was not incorporated under that name as town until the late 1780s - after my folks left from there for Kentucky.  Adams was still part of York County then too.

Can't really tell much about the gun from the photos, other than it looks like an old primitive restock of a mix of older parts and simple fabricated parts (the guard). 

Guy

[TPH]

That's a tough one. I think this is another "barn gun", not an Indian Trade Musket. It appears to be a simple gun made for use by a farmer or other person of rural background who didn't have or feel the need to spend a large amount of money. I feel that the reused Prussian musket (or pistol?) lock is an indication of post Revolutionary War manufacture. But hey, what do I know? 

[Fullstock longrifle]

Dale Anderson is a civil war dealer who's been around for a long time.  I had heard that he moved from New England to the Gettysburg area several years ago.  

The rifle is low end, probably made using old parts from various guns. I don't know that you would call it a re-stock, they just used what they had on hand when it was made.

Frank

[G-Man]

True, I guess maybe "cobbled up" might be a better description

[tom patton]

Without handling the gun I can't begin to definitely determine the age or area of origin.Of one thing I am sure ,this is no trade gun.I understand that Wes White had documentation that after the revolution one of  the largest groups of customers for Lancaster guns was Indian market hunters. At the earliest{educated guess}I would place this gun around 1800 +/= some 10 years.It could even be a recent cobbled up and aged gun or it could be a "classic"homemade barn gun.By this time Leman, the Henrys, and others were turning out quality trade rifles for  Indians and Whites alike.

It has become very typical for those wishing to sell guns that don't fit any regular mold to label them as "Indian trade guns" usually with tacks and/or rawhide wrapping thus cashing in on a certain mystique. After all "everyone" knows that a "genuwine Indan trade gun" is highly desirable .I would not have been surprised to see tacks and rawhide wrist repair on this gun.Granted, this type of decoration would be likely found on Western guns but add ons aren't limited to the West.

I guess then that I would make a wild stab in the dark and hazard a guess that it is cobbled up and possibly home made gun. Old/new ?  don't know but CAVEAT EMPTOR here. I think that unless this gun has some hidden assets or a fabulous and documented provenance that $2,450.00 is bit more than I would care to spend.I would have to have a real come to Jesus  meeting with myself before I paid any where close to that much.

[smshea]

Maybe Wayne Heckert could chime in on this? Id like to hear his opinion .

[Dphariss]

Simpson's LTD just posted this piece at their web site.  http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_info.php?products_id=12863&osCsid=6cfda410bb1940fb2548c84e14eb1a28

It's obviously not French and Indian, and I have no idea what is mean by the place names in their description:INDIAN TRADE MUSKET; 75 cal; good stock, 45'' barrel, Information from the previous owner: US French and Indian War Pennsylvania made musket. Sharttesville PA area Dale C Anderson, Gettysburg PA. Iron Lock and large trigger guard. Heavy brass tieplate. No buttplate fitted. Lock is in working condition. Heavy rust brown patina on metal. Believed to be a musket made for Indian trade. Ramrod could be the original. Caliber is approximate.,

Tom

Looks like a farmer/blacksmith restock of a parts someone scrounged up.
Most natives did not use 75 caliber guns, used too much lead.
The natives would not have paid money for something this crude so far as that goes. So being made for the indian trade is pure BS IMO.
I would be VERY careful in buying something like this.
Dan

[mr. no gold]

Simpson's website has always given me fits. In the past it usually froze up so that I had to 'force quit' AOL or just shut the computer down. It appears that they have improved it some; now I merely can't get the image to come up, but can finally get off the site without drastic measures. Wonderful!
From what I can see of the gun in the thumbnails, (oddly those do show) it looks like it could be a 'schimmel', or a home made piece. Attribution to the mid 1700s appears to be a flight of fancy. Is it priced too high, who knows? I wouldn't pay that for it. Just my thoughts though, and a wee bit of Scottish blood in my veins.
Dick

[nord]

Two factors lie between a common antique firearm and a prized antique firearm... Provenance & Fine Art.

Absent of either, this large bore musket will remain a common antique of a VERY utilitarian nature in my opinion.  We can speculate about its origin and comment about the claims made by the seller, but it doesn't mean much.

For a very few dollars more than the asking price for this piece one can obtain a fairly nice longrifle stamped with the name of its maker. Maybe not a higher end piece, but an honest example of a real longrifle.

So... Which would you purchase?

 

[rich pierce]

Regardless, the construction of the guard is very interesting.  There is a flat piece forming the front extension, etc and the front of the bow is inserted into this in a mortise, I imagine, then welded or more likely just riveted, peened to fasten it securely.

[The other DWS]

In the past, long past, I saw several rather crude "trade muskets" in Pa Keeler's collection that he had determined were made for african and east "Indian" trade.  most were english and belgian made.  not saying that is what yours is, just that when the words "trade" or "indian trade" are used it can well apply to other continents than North America,  the F&I war was the real "first world war" and common european arms as well as "trade good" commodities were used world wide.

[TPH]

I still pretty much stand by what I said above back in October: post-Revolutionary War made in (maybe) Pennsylvania. Cobbled together from parts available to the farmer or blacksmith. Certainly not made for the Indian Trade.