Davis Late Ketland Square tail flintlock

[redheart]

Hey Guys,
I've had this Davis square tail flintlock laying around for quite awhile.
I like the looks of it , but don't know what type of rifle to use it for.
Did these actually exist on American rifles such as SMR's, Shimmels ,"Poor Boy rifle"s or Trade rifles?
or are they almost exclusively on English sporting rifles?
I don't recall seeing any photos of of this late style of flintlock on original American rifles!

[Mike Brooks]

They are a late flint English export lock. I have seen them on about everything.

[bama]

I saw one on a late period Carolina rifle and on a late period 3/4 stock rifle probably of southern origin.

[Pete G.]

I used one on a curly ash SMR. One of my favorite locks.

[redheart]

Thanks Guy's,

At least I know now that they were used over here.
I tried Googling "square tail lock" and Ketland and only came up with 3 Double English shotguns.
Don't think I'll be building one of those any time soon.

[Lucky R A]

      You will find some on late flint period Western PA rifles built by guys like Fleeger, McCosh, Allison and others.  Good locks, and what I use when I can not get Chambers late Ketlands. 
Ron

[smart dog]

Hi,
They are pretty good locks but the ones I've used needed work. I posted this picture of the lock in another recent post:


The first thing to note is the curve of the frizzen face.  It was originally pretty straight and flints smashed against it straight on getting knapped with each shot. If you turned the flint bevel up, they hit very low down on the face and barely kicked the frizzen over.  When you look at actual British guns with similar locks, most if not all show more arc to the frizzen.  I heated the frizzen bright red hot and bent it to create that gentle arc. That solved the issue very well.  Next, the main springs are usually too weak for such a short throw lock and they are not shaped right so that the lower leaf of the main spring bends upward in the middle at full cock. I want that leaf to be perfectly straight at full cock. I heated the main bend of the spring bright red hot and hammered it more tightly closed.  Then held the bend in a vise, heated the lower leaf red hot, grabbed the hook in pliers and pulled downward to create a gentle even downward arc starting just beyond the bend and extending to the hook. After hardening and tempering, the spring is strong and with the right whippy feel.  Check on how the toe of the frizzen engages the roller on the frizzen spring.  On the one in the photo, the roller was too far away from the lock plate such that the toe of the frizzen touched only its inner edge and just barely.  To resolve that, I filed the inner edge of the spring to make it thinner and bring the roller directly under the toe of the frizzen.  I also reshaped the spring by pinching the bend (heated red hot) and giving the upper leaf a slight upward arc. That changes the roller frizzen action from grinding and dead to crisp and snappy. Finally, the heads of the screws in the bridle are have ridiculously shallow slots. It pays to carefully file or cut deeper slots.  The lock went from mediocre to very good with those changes.

dave

[Bob Roller]

Hi,
They are pretty good locks but the ones I've used needed work. I posted this picture of the lock in another recent post:


The first thing to note is the curve of the frizzen face.  It was originally pretty straight and flints smashed against it straight on getting knapped with each shot. If you turned the flint bevel up, they hit very low down on the face and barely kicked the frizzen over.  When you look at actual British guns with similar locks, most if not all show more arc to the frizzen.  I heated the frizzen bright red hot and bent it to create that gentle arc. That solved the issue very well.  Next, the main springs are usually too weak for such a short throw lock and they are not shaped right so that the lower leaf of the main spring bends upward in the middle at full cock. I want that leaf to be perfectly straight at full cock. I heated the main bend of the spring bright red hot and hammered it more tightly closed.  Then held the bend in a vise, heated the lower leaf red hot, grabbed the hook in pliers and pulled downward to create a gentle even downward arc starting just beyond the bend and extending to the hook. After hardening and tempering, the spring is strong and with the right whippy feel.  Check on how the toe of the frizzen engages the roller on the frizzen spring.  On the one in the photo, the roller was too far away from the lock plate such that the toe of the frizzen touched only its inner edge and just barely.  To resolve that, I filed the inner edge of the spring to make it thinner and bring the roller directly under the toe of the frizzen.  I also reshaped the spring by pinching the bend (heated red hot) and giving the upper leaf a slight upward arc. That changes the roller frizzen action from grinding and dead to crisp and snappy. Finally, the heads of the screws in the bridle are have ridiculously shallow slots. It pays to carefully file or cut deeper slots.  The lock went from mediocre to very good with those changes.

dave

Really elegant remake.Too bad it didn't come from the maker like that.

Bob Roller

[Curt Larsen]

I used one on my southern rifle.  I rounded off the square ends and it looks like the L&R lock of similar pan and internal designs.  I've fired dozens of shots with it at our monthly shoots.  It has been dependable and I have no complaints. 
Curt

[redheart]

Mike, bama, PeteG., LuckRA, smart dog, Bob, Curt, Thanks for weighing on my question. Because of your help I'm gonna use this lock on a .32 SMR.
I Googled "Original Ketland Locks" and didn't come up with any square tails. In all of my internet searching I only came up with the three original flint double shotguns, one fancy flint Fleeger rifle and lots of contemporary guns with this lock, but you know how it is, it's always hardest to find what you're actually looking for.
Hey smart dog! My lock has all of the problems that you mention with the additional problem that if you even breathe on the frizzen it'll pop open. Thanks for taking the time to tell me about these flaws and how you dealt with them.
I think at the very least I'm going to curve the frizzen, center the roller and try to alter the cam on the frizzen so it doesn't pop open if you barely touch it.
By the way, how exactly did you re temper the frizzen after you bent it? I was hoping to avoid some of the guess work if possible.

[BarryE]

I'm glad you have a direction.  Locks of this type were also used on PA rifles.  This rifle was made by John Nichman who worked north of Gettysburg, Pa.  I got to see it last year at the Kindig York County rifle symposium and display. The rifle appears in Kindig's book.  It is dated 1826, but he believed it was made earlier than that.  It's on my to do list and I have started gathering parts.

[redheart]

BarryE,
Thanks Bro,
This is the kind of photo I'm looking for. Flat tail locks on original rifles and pistols.

[David R. Pennington]

If I remember there is a Honaker rifle in Whisker’s WV book with that style lock. I’ve got a lock that style in a new old stock kit I am thinking about using on a .32.

[Kevin]

There is a bobtailed flintlock on a George Schroyer, Jr. rifle pictured in Whisker's "Gunsmiths of Adams, Franklin, and Cumberland Counties, Pennsylvania" book.  The style of the pan is different but certainly from the same era.

Kevin

[snrub47]

Caywood offers a similar lock.....