Drawing up plans

[tlallijr]

I built a Lehigh rifle a few years back and have been disappointed at the cheek slap it gives you. I’m not ready to give up on the style and would like to try and build another that will be more pleasant to shoot. On the first rifle I reduced the length of pull to accommodate winter clothing, I’m not planning that on this build so length of pull is a little longer. Ok , on my new plan I lowered the wrist 1/4” and lowered the drop 3/4”, I also reduced the amount of the Roman nose a little. Do you feel I’m on the right track ? Also , I would love to hear any tips you more experienced builders might have for drawing up plans. In the photo my first rifle (the cheek slapper) is in red and my new profile is in black. Any input is appreciated. Tony

[DAV-AZ]

You might try visiting vonaschwegeflintlocks.com.  Eric sells an assortment of rifle and pistol plans to include several Lehigh's.  I own a Lehigh that he built and it shoots well with no bad manners.  He also has a tutorial section with Lehigh details that might help you out.

[David R. Pennington]

I built a .62 caliber rifle a while back and I was worried about getting the mechanics right with it so I could shoot it. I got some good help here. One thing I learned is the importance of the relationship between the angle of the butt plate in relation to the horizontal plane of the barrel. There is a term for this but I can’t remember it. I can shoot my .62 all day with no discomfort.

[Mike Brooks]

What is the drop about 1" behind the point where the wrist meets the comb?

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

In designing your rifle, with respect to architecture that does not slap your cheek bone, consider the drop at the comb to be the most critical dimension.  For the rifle pictured here, my Jacob Kuntz compilation piece, these are the critical dimensions:

lop...13 7/8"
drop at comb...1.583"
drop at heel...3.550"
measurements taken from the top of the barrel flat
height of rear sight above the plane of the bbl...   .219"
     "       front   "                                         ...   .157"
barrel (Rice) 44" x .40 cal B weight swamped
weight of rifle 8 1/2 pounds

Comments:  the buttstock shape does not have to have an exaggerated drop at the HEEL to look good and certainly not to shoot well.  In fact, many jaeger rifles and English sporting rifles have a virtually parallel to bore comb line, but the drop at the comb keeps your cheek bone in the comfort zone, just as an example.
I second the use of Eric von Auschwege's Lehigh plans.  He and Tom Curran were instrumental in designing my rifle pictured here.  They took detailed and accurate dimensions from the MET's two Kuntz rifles.







...just looking at your drawing, Mr. t, and I see you have a sizeable rod hole drawn.  My .40 cal rifle has a 5/16" hole for a .40 cal.  You could go as large as 3/8" for a .54 cal, I suppose, but remember - the larger the hole, that deeper through the lock your rifle will end up.  Keep it as slim as you can.

[tlallijr]

What is the drop about 1" behind the point where the wrist meets the comb?

 The drop there is 1 3/8 ".

 Taylor, Thanks for your input. I based the plan on a Rice southern mountain profile in .45 cal with a 3/8 ramrod hole. Do you think a 3/8" is too big ?

[David Rase]

What is the drop about 1" behind the point where the wrist meets the comb?

 The drop there is 1 3/8 ".

 Taylor, Thanks for your input. I based the plan on a Rice southern mountain profile in .45 cal with a 3/8 ramrod hole. Do you think a 3/8" is too big ?

I would go with a 5/16" rod.  I have had requests to inlet several .50 caliber rifles with 5/16" rods.
David
 
David

[rick/pa]

One thing I learned is the importance of the relationship between the angle of the butt plate in relation to the horizontal plane of the barrel. There is a term for this but I can’t remember it. I can shoot my .62 all day with no discomfort.

I believe the term you are looking for is pitch. If the butt plate is flat on the floor and the heel is against a wall, the angle of the barrel to the wall is the pitch. A rifle with too little pitch is awkward looking but I can't remember how it affects the shooting and recoil.

[Daryl]

What is the drop about 1" behind the point where the wrist meets the comb?

 The drop there is 1 3/8 ".

 Taylor, Thanks for your input. I based the plan on a Rice southern mountain profile in .45 cal with a 3/8 ramrod hole. Do you think a 3/8" is too big ?

I would go with a 5/16" rod.  I have had requests to inlet several .50 caliber rifles with 5/16" rods.
David
 
David

Yes - absolutely, 5/16" rod in the stock, tapered out to 3/8" is about perfect. You didn't say what calibre your rifle happens to be. 5/16" to .400" would work on a .50.

[Mike Brooks]

What is the drop about 1" behind the point where the wrist meets the comb?

 The drop there is 1 3/8 ".

 Taylor, Thanks for your input. I based the plan on a Rice southern mountain profile in .45 cal with a 3/8 ramrod hole. Do you think a 3/8" is too big ?

On lehighs that is about the minimum amount of drop that will work for me. I took patterns from an original Kuntz and an original Rupp, they both had 1 3/8" at that point, and 3 3/4" ish at the heal, 13" pulls and both fit me perfect. I'm 5'11" and used to think I needed close to a 14" pull. I find  that 13" pull to fit fine in a Lehigh. As others have stated, 5/16" rod and a tapered web' 1/8" at the breech and 5/32" at the muzzle.

[tlallijr]

**fixed quote problem tdg**
On lehighs that is about the minimum amount of drop that will work for me. I took patterns from an original Kuntz and an original Rupp, they both had 1 3/8" at that point, and 3 3/4" ish at the heal, 13" pulls and both fit me perfect. I'm 5'11" and used to think I needed close to a 14" pull. I find  that 13" pull to fit fine in a Lehigh. As others have stated, 5/16" rod and a tapered web' 1/8" at the breech and 5/32" at the muzzle.

 Thanks Mike, my cheek bone is hitting the stock about 2 inches back from where the comb meets the wrist. The drop there is 1 3/4".  Tony

[Mike Brooks]

Thanks Mike, my cheek bone is hitting the stock about 2 inches back from where the comb meets the wrist. The drop there is 1 3/4".  Tony

YEOWZA! You must be a real cheeky fellow. Try putting a bunch of cast off in it, that will help.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

A lot depends on how you shoulder (mount) the stock.  If, standing erect and looking at your target, you bring the rifle to your eye, you may find the fit will be different than shouldering the rifle, and bringing your face down to the comb.  Best I can do from here is tell you what works for a geezer who's 6'2" and 220 pounds with a 35" shirt inseam.

[ron w]

I've always wondered if the original builders of this style of stock took an individual's measurements into consideration when designing or if they had an established "standard" that was recognized and used bu most builders. is it safe to assume that there was an established standard and it was deviated slightly simply by generl appearance of the customer.  ie,. " this fellow is a bit short and stocky so i'll take a bit of drop in the comb and heel off the "standard I use", vs. actual individual fitment measurements.  just how common was a truly "fitted" gunstock at the time (?), ….considering the assumption that the majority of rifles built in the Colonies or States, were built by small shops,..."one at a time", or possibly only a few at a time ,.. back then.

[Mr. Bubbles]

Certainly the drop at the comb where your cheek makes contact makes a big difference.  That, and the cast-off determine the orientation of your face at contact.  The more erect your face is, the more likely it will slide off the comb as the gun is coming back and not wack you.  For myself, I need about 1 3/4" of drop from the sight line.  But another misunderstood element in the cheek slap dissection is the shape of the "scoop" off the comb.  The more vertical the scoop, the more solid your cheek bone contact and harder the slap.  Try moving the rounded part of the wrist up a little bit so when the gun comes back, your face is pushed a little to the left, and the rising comb will just barely miss the bone.

[Stophel]

While some Lehigh guns do have a lot of drop in the stock, the best ones (in my opinion) actually have very little drop in the butt (and the wrist).  And the top of the combs are not all that curved, and most of the curve is the butt curving down behind the cheek.  You can see Taylor's gun does not have a lot of downturn at all.  The wrist might actually cause you more discomfort than the comb should. 

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Another contributing factor to cheek slap, is butt pitch.  Some guns, and the repro Tulle musket is often one of them, have a severe pitch, such that when the gun is set onto the floor next to a wall with the heel and toe contacting the floor, both the butt heel and the muzzle are a considerable distance from the wall.  This factor causes the gun to ride up the shoulder on firing, forcing the comb into the cheek, and that can affect the amount of discomfort one feels when shooting guns with this design.

[Mr. Bubbles]

Indeed Taylor you are right on.  I tend to think the thing most aspiring Lehigh builders miss the most is that they do not make their wrists high enough and flat enough on the top part, particularly forward of where their face contacts the comb. 

If you watch slow motion videos of recoil (of just about any shoulder-mounted gun) you will see the gun comes pretty much straight back a ways (like an inch or so) before it runs in to enough resistance from the shoulder  and starts to pitch up.  What happens to your cheek weld in that distance and during pitch-up is going to be the primary sources of cheek slap.  If your cheek bone is off the corner of the comb you won't get whacked as much, if at all.  The load size determines how hard and fast it comes back, and the amount of pitch-up.

[E.vonAschwege]

Chiming in late to the game here!  I need to update my site and put my blueprints on hold for the time being, as I'm in the midst of moving shop and am unable to ship these out right now (I'm also virtually out of stock at the moment).  You've gotten some great advice already from the folks here - more drop isn't always the answer, and exaggerates the perceived recoil of the gun.  Some of the best (in my opinion) Lehigh guns of the period have somewhat little drop, and a very horizontal wrist.  They do require a bit more finagling to get your face comfortably on the stock.  The area under the wrist is even dished upwards!  These are not all "dainty" guns either - minimal wood around the lock plate and breech tend to make them look skinnier than they are.  The two great Rupp rifles are shown in profile in a few books, and have somewhat high combs - all else considered. 

As an aside, or more to play the devil's advocate - just because the originals are beautiful doesn't mean they all shoot comfortably  .  There's many fine guns that probably bite hard! 

[Bob Roller]

There was a real good REASON the British "bore" rifles like the "8 bore" and
others had a straight stock unless custom ordered without one.The American
Long Rifles with a crooked as a dog's hind leg stocks usually weren't as potent
as an old fashion elephant gun. . In 1954 during my first trip to Friendship
with E.M.Farris I heard shots being fired from across the road and looked over and saw
several guys with a double rifle standing on the foot bridge that was then the only way
across Laughery Creek.They had a .600 Nitro,Jeffry's as I recall and were blowing
BIG carp out of the creek with it. I was asked if I wanted to try it but declined.
They had to lean over to point that gun down and I saw the wallop it packed and
didn't want to risk a cracked or broken clavicle 185 miles from home. My one and only
chance to fire a REAL high powered rifle.

Bob Roller

[greybeard]

I built a .62 caliber rifle a while back and I was worried about getting the mechanics right with it so I could shoot it. I got some good help here. One thing I learned is the importance of the relationship between the angle of the butt plate in relation to the horizontal plane of the barrel. There is a term for this but I can’t remember it. I can shoot my .62 all day with no discomfort.

pitch      Bob

[Dphariss]

If you are having problems with being whacked on the cheek then increasing drop at the heel is not likely to help.
Getting the comb  line closer the parallel with the bore (at least from the cheek weld foreward) and reducing the drop are about the only answer.
Here is a video of recoil with a 15 bore rifle moving a 16 bore ball at 1600 fps. It shows what happens to the head under recoil. This rifle is stocked like an English rifle or fowler, with near zero pitch and is shot off the "shoulder pocket" and does not hurt. However, one of the reasons I don't shoot it is that I had an "experience" in the military that damaged my neck and upper back and I just don't need to stress those parts anymore.
The FS rifle is a 54 at about 1900 fps is shot off the arm and note the buttstock movement. This rifle has what I would call the Sam Hawken pattern and is basically the triangular Lancaster design.

AND we have to remember that rifle matches in America at the time were generally shot off a rest ("chunk" or "plank" rest etc), and usually prone (offhand was thought to be a poor test of a rifle). If we realize this and do some testing we see that some of the somewhat odd stock designs actually work well for this.
Dan



Cheek biter, putting on higher sights helped this one, it was 54 caliber. GREATLY regret selling this one by Don King


Not cheek biters 50 cal and the 15 bore