Author Topic: What welding rod  (Read 5721 times)

J.D.

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What welding rod
« on: June 18, 2009, 10:41:16 PM »
do y'all use to weld lockplates, that blends well with the parent metal?

I had a welder build up a coupla parts, and thought they haven't been browned, there is a distinct difference in the appearance of the added material and the parent material.

So, what type of filler material do y'all recommend?

Thanks and God bless,
J.D.

Offline rick landes

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Re: What welding rod
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2009, 10:48:37 PM »
I have used Unifil .035 wire for extending tangs and the like and it has browned fine. I am always wary of this parent metal to filler problem. I do believe that browning is a better way out than bluing as it seems the browns match, while the acid reactions for a blued finish tend to vary a bit more.

I do think if I needed to do a blue job I would only use a rust blue process versus the hot salt bath or cold blue methods.

Some have filled pores and pits by carefully drilling out the pit and filling with filler and then bluing on highend shotguns under restoration, for example. I have always wondered how they knew what would match up with an unknown barrel material.

I think as long as you are using a filler/wire that is made for mild steel you will be fine. If you are able to find from the mill what the cert sheet is you can share the info with a good welding supply house for the answer to the best filler.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 10:53:49 PM by rick landes »
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J.D.

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Re: What welding rod
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2009, 11:53:03 PM »
Thanks Rick, 

 I forgot to mention that I tried to harden an Italian frizzen that chipped badly when dropped on concrete, and subsequently filled. I got some colors on the frizzen, but the filled area came out bright, and I mean real bright, right up to the line of color. IMHO, looks kinda funky, to me.

I did specify that mild steel filler material be used, but the filled area wouldn't show oxidation colors when the pan cover was tempered, so I'm trying to figure out what filler rod can be used to better blend in.


Thanks, and God bless
« Last Edit: June 19, 2009, 12:23:26 AM by J.D. »

Offline FL-Flintlock

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Re: What welding rod
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2009, 03:48:23 PM »
Unless the filler metal perfectly matches the base metal, it's going to show; how much it shows will depend upon how well the filler metal is wetted into the base metal and the chosen type of finish.  Even when the filler metal closely matches the base, you can still have color distortion throughout the heat affected zone unless the entire weldment is normalized.

Trying to match alloys is nearly impossible but every welding filler metal will have an as-welded analysis with the exception of the non-certified $#@* filler metals.  The analysis will look something like this for a common E-7018 SMAW (stick) electrode:

C  0.07
Mn  1.10
P  0.01
S  0.01
Si  0.30
Cr  0.08
V  0.01
Ni  0.08
Mo  0.01
Mn + Ni + Cr + Mo + V = 1.28

Here is a typical deposit analysis of common ER70S-6 GMAW (mig) wire using 75%Ar/25%CO2 shielding gas:

C  0.09
Mn  1.21
Si  0.67
P  0.009
S  0.01
Cu  0.12

If you can find the "typical analysis" on the base metal, you want to match it as closely as possible to the "deposit analysis" of the filler metal not the actual composition.  Cleaning & pre-heating the part is essential, in order to make wetting easier, the pre-heat should be well above "normal", typically to around 1200 (dull red) if you can sustain the arc for a while and put the additional heat into the part via the weld - for small spot welding you want the pre-heat up around 1475-1550°F where you can obtain a quick wet-out but you're not going to have time to dilly-dally around on something thin like a lock plate unless you put it on a backer and heat the whole assembly.  Normally, stabilized ceramic makes the best inert backer that won't become more of a problem than it's worth.

It's impossible to give a suggest as to "what rod/wire" for a given application because every base alloy is different and unless you can match them, unfortunately you're likely left with "trial & error". 
« Last Edit: June 20, 2009, 03:55:21 PM by FL-Flinter »
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: What welding rod
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2009, 05:28:46 PM »
@!*%, Mark, your welding knowledge continues to blow me away. I file all your posts away in a 'welding file' on my computer. Great stuff. Thanks
Acer
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
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J.D.

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Re: What welding rod
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2009, 07:14:03 PM »
Wow, thanks Mark,  that is a big help.

I talked to the welder who filled the frizzen. He used stainless filler material, when I ask for mild steel. When showed the difference in appearance while I explained why I needed mild steel filler, his response was, "I didn't think of that".

He is willing to fix the parts for nothing. Can't beat that.

The part in question, in this particular case, is Italian made, so there it no telling what the composition of the steel is.

Based on how the part drills, I'm guessing it's made of something similar to 4140, so we'll just have to wing it, trial and error style. ;)

At least I now know what the problem was, and have a good idea of how to fix it.

I do appreciate everyone's help,

God bless


Offline FL-Flintlock

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Re: What welding rod
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2009, 05:24:39 PM »
Tom,

If I see you offering a welding book for sale, I'll expect royalty checks.  ;)


JD,

If that lock plate "seems" like 4140, it's probably in the 1141/41xx class being somewhat heat treatable.  Getting a good color match isn't going to be easy but if you're going to brown it, I wouldn't be overly concerned with color since a darker brown will hide a lot of mis-match just like popcorn paint hides the crappy construction work.   I'd ask your welder if he has any NR203MP, it's a high-strength GMAW FC (mig flux core) wire made by Lincoln.  (yes, I'm partisan to my welding power sources being "blue" but on consumables I go with what works best).   I went with NR203MP for about 85% of my industrial/mining fab & repair work because it is far superior in most cases to the common low-hydrogen mild steel alternatives.  It's got a higher Cr, Mo & Ni content which gives it the additional strength and the deposited material does have some heat-treat properties.  Of course, it's a shot in the dark but likely it will provide the best all-around generic match to the lock plate but pre & post heat the snot out of it.  I'd pre-heat to as in my previous reply then post-heat @ 1600°F for at least an hour then slowly drop to 600°F over another 1-2 hours to make sure it is fully normalized.  You may have to repeat the normalization and adjust the temps & times as necessary depending on the base metal; that's just part of the poke & hope guess work and "seeing" what happens the first time around. 

You'll have to rely on normalizing with heat since these small delicate parts don't take to kindly to getting the $#@* beat out of them with the pneumatic needle gun or 60# air hammer for stress relief.  It may require multiple treatments too, this will depend not only on the base metal but also on the amount of filler metal used and the structural nature of the repair.  One thing I can tell you for sure, no matter how many books and procedures are written, they're still nothing more than a generic reference when you get into the real world.  Thus is why I stand by my statement that books are often as important for what they make you think as well as the information they contain.

If this is an absolutely critical part for appearance purposes, I would suggest doing the structural repair with the NR203MP or something with similar properties without regard to color matching; then when it's all done, send it out to a shop that does twin-wire non-contact cold spray and have it completely covered with a known single alloy.  If it's just a functional repair with less emphasis on visual aspects, you can sometimes fudge the color matching with a combination of acid etching and salt boiling or move to the extremes of mineral deposition but it's not something I suggest unless you have all the proper equipment; far to easy to poison, severely burn or blow yourself up.

I've built-up frizzens using an imported non-certified high-carbon filler wire with direct-contact arc-spray transfer as well as oxy-fuel flame-spray.  Either method works well but flame-spray offers more convenient and readily available consumable options.  Neither method is cost-effective for anyone not using the required materials & equipment on a regular basis - save yourself the hassle & cost and just send the stuff to a shop that specializes in resurfacing work.  I have seen people destroy frizzens with hardfacing alloys - these are cast iron and/or carbide deposits that don't spark well if at all.  Cr-V alloy is also not good for frizzens, the Cr content it too-high reducing the desired spark characteristics, you're better off using a high-carbon low-alloy filler and properly face-quenching it; too-hard is just as bad as too-soft.  In most cases, frizzens can be done with common E-7018 or ER 70S-6 then boost the carbon content via forge cooking or chemical treatment like Kasenit.  If you're looking to boost the performance, go with an E-12018 filler or the NR203MP as both with readily take on additional carbon and the deposited material will more resistant to the impact & abrasion giving longer wear.
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Bill Brockway

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Re: What welding rod
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2009, 12:30:41 AM »
J.D.  -

I do a lot of restoration work, mostly on English doubles, and find a good filler rod (for TIG welding, or for oxy-acetylene, not for arc welding) is concrete tie wire.  You can find it at Contractors' Supply houses.  It is inexpensive,  dead soft, and appears to be very low carbon steel.  Rusts like crazy, and can be browned and/or rust blued to match most old gun parts.  We're talking 100 -200 year old parts here.  It does not work well for parts that must be hardened, such as frizzens.  Works fine for parts that must be color case hardened (pack hardened).  For filling tumbler notches and sear noses, I usually harden the wear surfaces with Kasenite.  Works fine for that.

I don't do the welding, but the welder who does this kind of work for me swears by the tie wire, and I can testify to its browning capabilities.

Hope this helps.

Bill 

J.D.

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Re: What welding rod
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2009, 12:50:52 AM »
Thanks to everyone who has responded. Your responses have been very informative. I was wondering about a simple filler material, like the tie wire, or coat hangar, but thought those items might be a little cheesy. However, sometimes cheesy works better than high tech materials.

I will talk to my welder about his suggestions for filler, and offer Bill's suggestion of tie wire.

Thanks again,
J.D.

Offline JCKelly

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Re: What welding rod
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2009, 02:10:54 AM »
Two things in my industrial experience.

First, whether it is welding or foundry work, people are good at doing what they regularly do. Don't ever, ever ask a foundry to cast any alloy, whether steel, brass, bronze, whatever--that they do not already work with. There is an actual technical reason, called the need for a "wash heat", as well as human habit.

Second, as you have already found, welders like stainless. I recall a nice Remington Navy with Magic Marker used to cover up the very fine stainless weld repair to a cracked frame (Remington used malleable cast iron for many frames during our War Between the States). You might maybe actually have to be there in person to get the welder, nice intelligent guy that he may be, to use carbon steel. Those tie wires sound like a great idea to me but betcha a good welder may think you are nuts.

Whenever you ask someone to repair a gun part, well, if he doesn't regularly repair antique/replica guns, he will do as he is accustomed to do. Which means he will NOT use tie wire, and would prefer to use 308, 309 or 310 stainless. Makes a great weld, or can if done right, in carbon steel. Nice & shiney & pretty, as well as tough, mechanically a good weld.

Offline FL-Flintlock

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Re: What welding rod
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2009, 03:31:06 PM »
Concrete tie wire is the same as mechanic wire, low-alloy mild carbon steel.  You must be careful about what you buy, if it's mfg'ed anywhere except US, EU or Canada, it is normally made from whatever $#@* they had laying around.  The first thing any good welder looks for is consistency in their consumables, avoid the hassles and possible dangers of working with unknowns and spend a few dollars on a known alloy.  A good low-alloy mild carbon steel oxy-fuel / TIG rod can be had from most filler metal mfg's such as Lincoln R-45 and other X-45 designations (45 ksi deposit).  I'm not discounting the fact that mechanic's wire or tie wire can actually work well, the problem is that unless it comes with an alloy certification, you don't know how much of what's in it and it can contain any number of contaminants that are detrimental to the weld and/or highly toxic when heated to welding temperatures. 

Contaminants are an issue with weld quality because while the weld may look good, it can in fact have very low structural strength.  Think of metal a block of salt; the block is made up of individual grains of salt bonded to each other in order to form a larger block.  The weakest point of the salt block, just as with any metal, is at the joint where the grains meet.  Many welders will go to stainless steel filler rods to make welds because the higher Ni & Cr content makes the filler flow easily and will make bonding to dissimilar or higher alloy metals much easier but in most cases it is not a good choice.  The major problem with using high Ni Cr (stainless) fillers is that unless the weldment is properly post-weld heat treated (normalized), there is a "brittle" zone crated within the HAZ (heat affected zone) that is subject to stress & impact failure.  The second major problem is when high Ni Cr fillers are used on non-stainless alloys is caused by the different thermal expansion rates that cause increased stress around the weld zone.  The use of high Ni Cr filler alloys came about as a manner of making welds on high-alloy and unknown steels as well as cast irons and dissimilar metals and if done properly, their use can be benficial in some cases but also result in catastrophic failures in others where the application or method is incorrect.

Years back, there wasn't a large choice of filler rods commonly available and anyone visiting a welding store will find the most common filler metals and usually staff that has no clue about properly matching alloys to applications and specific variations of fillers within the same specification.  Normally in stick electrodes you'll find 6010, 6011, 6013, 7014, 7018, 308, 309 & 310.  Most welding shop staff couldn't begin to explain the difference between McKay E-6010 and Lincoln E-6010 or the Lincoln E-6010 5P+; all the spec yet the 5P+ is as different in it's running characteristics from a standard E-6010 as is night from day.  The same applies to E-6011 & E-6013 that come in a variety flavors from standard to those tailored to run on the little low-voltage AC buzz-boxes and again, the difference is as night to day.  The filler metal industry has exploded since the late 1980's responding to industry request for tailored and specialty filler metals.  The 6IMP (non-nickel cast iron rods) changed the whole world of cast iron welding and kicked off several other choices of non-nickel stick electrodes for cast iron use as well as electrodes tailored to specific varieties of cast iron. 

I know that's off the topic of this post but I'm trying to make the point that there is no reason to not match the base alloy as closely as possible with the filler metal.  As I stated before, sometimes it's a $#@* shoot trying to figure out what the base alloy is and when you're dealing with unknowns, it becomes a guessing game at which point the best course of action to take is using a middle-of-the-road generic filler and following the common generic pre-heat & post-heat methods.

JCKelly said, "Whenever you ask someone to repair a gun part, well, if he doesn't regularly repair antique/replica guns, he will do as he is accustomed to do." 

That's a very true statement but the fellow who is accustomed to reaching for the 3xx series filler rather than trying to correctly match the alloys is not the best choice to be doing the particular work.  Go to an autobody shop and you'll find them trying to make weld repairs on anything made of metal using ER 70S-6; I've also seen many of these alleged welders running ER 70S-6 without any shielding gas and trying to weld steel to aluminum!  At a bare minimum, a good welder will start with a spark test to give a rough indication of the steel alloy; professional shops will have an alloy testing unit that gives a fairly reliable indication of the primary elements. 

I remember many years back, one of my uncles was a "welder" trained at FWC in the early 1950's.  Forty years later he was still reaching for coat hangers, putting up with the popping, spitting and making the same weld a dozen times because it kept cracking; he flat-out refused to spend $8 for a two-pound box of filler rods but had no problem wasting $40 worth of gas and spending a whole day trying to make one little weld hold.  Most metal coat hangers are made from higher alloy material, generally the only industry still using them is the uniform suppliers and they spec a tempered alloy to reduce damage loss rates.  It's a good alloy for the application but it is work hardened through a cold drawing process and thus normally contains a good amount of Mn in the alloy that will be left in the weld deposit.  Yes, it will increase strength of the weld but it will also work harden again as you do whatever needs doing to blend the weld; a high Mn weld put onto otherwise soft steel will present the same types of failure issues as are common to the use of high Ni Cr fillers.

It goes beyond the choice filler metal too because you can change the properties of the weld with the type of flame used and the method in which the weld is made.  When oxy-fuel welding, using a carburizing (soft) flame ads carbon to the weldment; using an oxidizing flame burns carbon out of the weldment; back welding reduces strength while push welding increases strength; cover-filling produces a much weaker joint than flow-filling.  When using SMAW, GTAW or GMAW processes, the filler must also match the process being used in that a stick electrode designed for flat & horizontal welding only will not produce a quality weld in vertical-up or overhead just the same as a rod designed for V-down will not produce a quality weld if it's run V-up; yes, you can "make the weld" but it will not be a quality weld no matter how good it "looks".  If you're going to run "hot", you must also run "fast" or the weldment will fail the v-notch & bend testing; if you're going to run low & slow, the weld will most often fail the those tests as well because the weld lacks penetration. 

Avoid any welder who is in a "habit" because each job must be taken for what it is.  I did field work and a "typical day" would was at 5am SMAW welding a cast steel steering component on 350 ton haul truck, at 9am GMAW welding a broken 304 stainless agitator assembly inside of a 6,000 gallon tank, 1pm brought a cast-iron gear box housing and 7pm I make it back to the shop to find an aluminum body dump truck with the tailgate ripped off and the owner-operator begging me to get it fixed so he could go to work the next day. 
The answers you seek are found in the Word, not the world.