Odd shotgun load to improve pattern

[Daryl]

I suspect we should/will try those loads with the oiled wad over the shot in Taylor's non choked guns this spring.

I am sure the choke at the end of the tube is the reason my 20 bore shoots such wonderful patterns. 

[John SMOthermon]

I fired a few more Skychief loads out of my 16 gauge today.

It looks like for my gun about 22 to 23 yards is all i'm going to get out of it.

At 25 the pattern opens up too much ... it pretty much covered a 2' x 2' paper with very few killing hits.



20 yard target

[Pukka Bundook]

I'm sure it can do better Smo.

Try an old load;
Start light.  It keeps pressure down.
same 65 grains of powder, maybe 2 F, no smaller.
a thin card wad, and a wool felt wad, no more than 1/3 diameter of the bore. (About .22 thick....Slice one down if needs be) 1 1/4 ounces of shot.
Top wad of what you like. Dry grass works, a small roll of newspaper, a thin card wad.  really you should do a few and try them all.  Paper that oranges come wrapped in is good as it's pretty tender stuff.

Maybe try a close shot of maybe 10 or 15 yards, to make sure you're hitting with the centre of your pattern.

Pleas try it.  It Might just work in your gun. 
All best,

Richard. 

[Daryl]

Yeah - kind of went to pot in that extra 15'. As Richard noted, use a large enough piece of paper to see where the centre of the pattern is.

There seems an inordinate amount of shot on the left side of the page.  Perhaps that is the centre of your pattern?  To properly pattern

shotguns, usually takes a lot of shots -per individual load.  Marking the pellet hits with a felt pen really helps see them better. A pointed felt

pen merely poked into the hole is wonderful for this, rather than a slash as some writers do.

[John SMOthermon]

Here’s the same two targets on a 2’ x2’ paper...

[Daryl]

The left bias in the group is quite evident in these larger pictures.
1/. Either the eye was on the left side of centre at the breech - or -
2/. The gun shoots to the left. 

The remedy is either bending the barrel which will work and likely be permanent, but some form of visual line or reference for your eye alignment might be an alternative route.

Do patched round balls have this same left bias?

Increasing or decreasing powder or shot charge may also change impact centres.

[John SMOthermon]

Yep, everything is low and left.

I’m working on the eye alignment now.

There’s been some great tips about temp. rear sights and such.

We’re getting there ... slowly but surely.

I’m just trying every alternative out there before bending.

[Pukka Bundook]

Smo,

Try it this way,

Keep your head upright and put gun to your shoulder look over the barrel.
  If you can see a lot of barrel and not just the tang and front sight , all the better. 
Holding it like this, is your eye over the centre of the breech?   I fit is, you should be OK for right & left unless barrel is already bent.
Put your left thumb over the top of the barrel.  Do this where your forward hand normally holds the gun. 
 Can you still see the front bead?  If so, Good!   This should mean that holding the gun in this fashion, you are now giving it some extra elevation.

What I think was happening is that if you are dropping your head to look 'down the sights" so to speak, you were running into the comb, and it wasn't allowing your head to get over to the centre of the barrel quite.
And, with dropping your head, you were "lowering the back sight ".  (shooting low)  If you keep head upright, and just look Over the barrel rather than Along it, you Will shoot higher.
Many good shotguns come up in this fashion, so that you see the full length of the barrels, not just breech and front sight.  In fact All the shotguns I can shoot with, if I look at the barrels at all, they are always in full view all the way from breech to muzzle.
One other thing, shoot with both eyes open!

Sorry, this must sound like you're back at school.  It's not meant that way, but rifles and shotguns are very different.   See if it helps.

[John SMOthermon]

I understand what you Guys are saying, I grew up hunting quail with a bolt action shotgun that was missing the front bead . 

So pointing a shotgun comes natural for me. But I’m all ears and willing to try different approaches.

I’ve talked with several people who do shoot smoothbores as if they were a rifle with great success.
 
Some have even filed a groove the the tang to be used as a rear sight.

If I sight down the barrel , using the tang screw as a centering point for my eye the gun shoots low and left.

Raising my head so to speak , I still see the tang screw in my peripheral vision this should keep my eye centered while maintaining a solid anchor point on my cheek.

I do see more barrel doing this , but still have to shoot off the bottom left hand corner of the front sight to bring the pattern or ball on target.

By doing this it’s like shooting a bow instinctively , which I did for several years so I understand that principle as well.

What I’m trying to do is get the gun where it “CAN “ be sighted like a rifle.
Not necessarily as much for hunting, but more for novelty and woods walk shooting.

Even for hunting , I want to be able to point and shoot , without having to remember where or how much to hold off of or above the animal. That’s my main goal.

I’m trying to get to where I can look/ sight down/along  the center of the barrel using the tip of the front sight on the center of the target and hit where I’m looking.

At this point I do need to file the front sight down some , but I don’t think I can go as low as I need too which I know means raising the rear which means raising my head more.
I’m using a small dot of white out on the base of the front sight now to simulate a shorter bead.
But that’s not what I’m looking for ....

  I hope this makes sense ...

[Pukka Bundook]

Yes, it all makes sense Smo, and I'm just wearing you out with ideas!
 
It sounds like a bit of bend might be required.  It Was a solution for long barrels shooting off.

[John SMOthermon]

I’m in agreement , it’s just frustrating getting there.

Back to the original post, the load does show an improvement in patterning out of my gun compaired to a more conventional loading sequence .

It’s well worth testing in your guns.



 

[Lobo]

I've always liked to load my smoothbore with 80gr's of 2FF, over powder card, 90gr's of #5 shot then over shot card. I use to load a fiber wad behind the shot but stopped doing that because it was said the wad would blow a hole in your shot pattern. This time I loaded my same load but I pushed a oil soaked fiber wad down to top it off. My smooth bore is a 16ga Fusil Fine with a 46" cylinder bore barrel, at 25 yds this was my pattern. I think I can kill a turkey out to 30yds, I'll do more testing before the season opens later this month, maybe back the powder charge down to 70grs and see what happens.

[OldMtnMan]

I haven't read this thread, so this info might have been mentioned already.

When I was younger and made a living trap shooting. The pattern our guns shot was very important.

We all shot the same ammo which was factory ammo. I use to shoot 1-2 cases a week. Nobody reloaded because back then we couldn't buy the hard shot that factory loads had.

 Al Timney used to come to all the shoots to do trigger mods for everybody. He also did work on the chokes. It was amazing how much better the pattern looked after he did his magic on the choke. I used to shoot a single shot Perazzi and you would think it would come with a good pattern since it was a dedicated trap gun. Yet, Al could make it shoot better.

My point is for those who can't get your gun to shoot a good pattern. Maybe some choke work will help. I have no idea what Al did to the choke and he was talking about it either. I'm sure there are gunsmiths that know what to do.

[Skychief]

I've always liked to load my smoothbore with 80gr's of 2FF, over powder card, 90gr's of #5 shot then over shot card. I use to load a fiber wad behind the shot but stopped doing that because it was said the wad would blow a hole in your shot pattern. This time I loaded my same load but I pushed a oil soaked fiber wad down to top it off. My smooth bore is a 16ga Fusil Fine with a 46" cylinder bore barrel, at 25 yds this was my pattern. I think I can kill a turkey out to 30yds, I'll do more testing before the season opens later this month, maybe back the powder charge down to 70grs and see what happens.

Good luck this Spring Ron.  Hope you leave a trail of feathers in your wake!

Best regards, Skychief.

[Dennis Daigger]

A really timely discussion for me.  I'm headed to east Washington in May to hunt turkeys with my mid-1800's ( pretty sure it's 1849 1/2 ) Wiengandt 16 gauge double.  The attached image is a 25 yard 1 1/4 oz load with 75 grains of 2F and a 1/8" nitro overpowder wad, 1/4" cushion and an overshot card.  The raised circle is 3" in diameter.  I'm not sure how to evaluate this.  Maybe the turkey died and if it was a good day for him, he didn't.  I'm not sure what to think about this but am interested in opinions.

[Marcruger]

To an old Southern boy, those cushion wads soaking remind me of sausage!  I bet sausage would release that much oil and grease too.   Hah.   God Bless,   Marc

[smokinbuck]

I have several shotguns, new and old, that my grandson and I shoot trap with and have settled on one common factor. The loads may change as they are both 20 ga and 12 ga but we do not use cushioned wads in any of our guns. Typical 12 ga would be 3 drams of FFg, over powder card, equal amount  by volume #7.5 or #9 shot and an over shot card. Typical 20 ga load is exactly the same. these loads smoke clays all the way back to 22 yards. The 20 ga is a Powell SXS  from Birmingham with 38" barrels, made in 1850.
Mark

[Lobo]

I have several shotguns, new and old, that my grandson and I shoot trap with and have settled on one common factor. The loads may change as they are both 20 ga and 12 ga but we do not use cushioned wads in any of our guns. Typical 12 ga would be 3 drams of FFg, over powder card, equal amount  by volume #7.5 or #9 shot and an over shot card. Typical 20 ga load is exactly the same. these loads smoke clays all the way back to 22 yards. The 20 ga is a Powell SXS  from Birmingham with 38" barrels, made in 1850.
Mark

Mark, load a oil soaked fiber wad on top of the shot and you'll be smoking clays out to 32 yards. 

[Daryl]

Smo - what do the patterns with just over shot, thin cards between the powder and shot look like?

I won a trap shoot with an H. Wahl 11 bore, using 3drams 2F (82gr.), 2 thin cards, then 1 1/4oz. 7 1/2 shot, then another thin card.

That gun seemed to like the combination. I got the idea to try that, from this site.

It used to shoot very weak, thin and holey to completely blown patterns if I used 12" fiber wads, normally. The 2 to 3 thin cards between powder and
shot did not disrupt the pattern.