Advice before carving

[Mike Lyons]

Do any of you see anything out of place or that I should correct before carving this in? 

[rich pierce]

Come on over and draw on my gunstocks anytime. I do notice what appears to be a flat spot in front of the trigger guard. That should be gently rounded. It’s one of the tougher transitions to shape. I take my time there and test by holding it there between thumb and forefinger and rotating the stock. You’ll feel any squareness.

[Mike Brooks]

I drew on carving at the tang of the gun I'm stocking now ALL DAY yesterday and by the end of the day I had NOTHING! You however make it look easy. All of your drawing is excellent. BUT, you're not ready to carve yet. The bottom side of the stock under the lock and around the trigger guard is VERY funky, need lots of shaping yet in that area before you ever think about carving.. I think a bit of scooping in the comb/wrist would be beneficial as well, I see your high spot along the wrist is way high, especially shows on the left side. A whole bunch of scooping on both sides is really needed.. You're a little square at the rear ram rod pipe too, you might think about making the rear skirt a little more round and re-inlet it, it will help to eliminate the squareness in that area.
 So, to summarize. Carving drawing EXCELENT, just not ready for that stage until you smooth out some architectural hiccups.

[J Henry]

  IF it is your rifle and you are happy,,go for it,if you change your mind later,change it!!!!I like the design and only wish I could get past Stick People and tic tac toe,Sand paper and pocket knife are what saves me,,so far..

[Mike Brooks]

IF it is your rifle and you are happy,,go for it,if you change your mind later,change it!!!!

Some days it just ain't worth getting out of bed.
 He asked for advice, not a slap on the back.

[kudu]

I dont Know much of anything about carving just enough to be dangerous.

Butt !!! the Nome/Face- The ears are not the same height or across from one another maybe they are supposed to be that way? 

[Mike Lyons]

Thank you Mike, Rich and Kudu.  I really appreciate the advice.  I’ll get back to it and try to correct those problem areas.  I’m not happy with it J. Henry.  I’m trying to copy original design and not go off on my own. 

[Mike Brooks]

From the edge of the trigger guard to the edge of your lock panels should be flat or nearly so. There should be no flat spot on either side of your trigger plate either. The bottom of the wrist from the step toe forward should be round.
 I'm sure some others will explain that better than I can. I could help you quick if we were face to face and I had the gun in hand, hard to do over the internet.....

[Mike Brooks]

You might hop over to A. Martin's or EK's websites to look at some of there work and study those areas your having trouble with. I see you have the KRA disc at hand, excellent reference.

[J Henry]

  My ,advice, if you like it carve it if not change till you are,make it your own, copy someone has already done it before,makes it your carving, their creation.What would have happened it the early rifle builders "copied',someone else, they were the first nobody before them...we would still be waiting.  I still like it, like to see it finished.

[Mike Brooks]

  My ,advice, if you like it carve it if not change till you are,make it your own, copy someone has already done it before,makes it your carving, their creation.What would have happened it the early rifle builders "copied',someone else, they were the first nobody before them...we would still be waiting.  I still like it, like to see it finished.

You are missing the point entirely. This is an educational forum, especially for those who ask to be educated. If he didn't give a @!*% about doing it right he never would have asked. As I stated before, this is not a back slapping you did 'er your way type of forum like others are.  This builder is going to go a long way in a very short span of time, he's SUPER talented and I'll try and give him all the help I can. It's a rare occasion when we find a new guy with this much ability.

[David Rase]

That lower forestock where it meets the front triggerguard extension is awfully flat.  The lower forestock should be cylinder shaped and extend under the forward triggerguard extension and fade out as it transitions through the underside of the lock panels.  I agree with Mike's assessment of the entrypipe finial being too flat.  Sometimes to get that cylinder effect through the forward extension I put a slight curve in the triggerguard forward extension.  You can still file in your flats but a curve lowres the outside edges of the extension thus aiding in the round shape you are going for. 

Another area I see that needs some scooping and removing of wood is on the sides of the barrel directly in front of the breech.  There should be no wood standing proud of the metal.  Metal protects wood, kind of a rule of thumb.  I really can't describe what I am trying to point out so I would suggest looking at a few photos of originals, or good contemporary work.

Keep plugging away Mike.  You are improving with each project and asking the right questions.
David 

[Stoner creek]

Mike if you would like a nice example to have at your bench to reference, my offer still stands!
BTW, listen to what Brooks and Rase are saying too.

[Mike Lyons]

Thanks for the compliment and  for the clearing that up quite well.  My way would be a waste of time, money and parts.  Besides,  I’d be embarrassed to take a “my way” rifle out of the house.  My brain evidently functions different than most peoples.  Learning the history and copying these rifles gives me more pleasure and it allows me to improve. Reference material is very valuable but pictures and lighting can only show you so much.  Being able to handle a properly made rifle is great and getting advice from an experienced longrifle gunsmith is by far the best learning tool I see a person can receive.  So again,  I thank you all for the advice that you give me and if there’s somehow I can repay you for your knowledge,  let me know. 

Back to my rifle.  My bottom stock lines are a train wreck. 

[David Rase]

My bottom stock lines are a train wreck.

Mike,
I have seen train wrecks and your gun is not even close.  It is more like a fender bender.  There is nothing that a little body work can't fix.  It is a lot easier to remove more wood and fix a problem when you have left too much wood or slab sided then it is when you have gone too far.  You have not gone too far yet.  You demonstrated on your first rifle that you have the eye.  We can get you through this.
David 

[Mike Lyons]

Thanks David.  Here’s an attempt to round stuff, resink the rear pipe and mess with the comb and bottom funky area. That comb is giving me fits. I scooped out some  but don’t want to dig in and mess up the wrist lines.  I don’t have much to play with. I lowered the wrist lines too.  I haven’t scooped the proud area around the breech yet.

[Mike Brooks]

As Mr. Spock would say  " Fascinating". Some one who asked for advice and actually took what he was offered and did an excellent job. It's all looking pretty good now. All I can say now is look at it and live with it and study on it for a couple days before you carve it. Take it out side in natural light and really look it over. Take a good look at it while it's wet too, that can be helpful.

[David Rase]

Mike,
The improvements to the lower forestock are amazing.  It is like looking at two different rifles when comparing the before and after pictures.  The funkiest thing I see now is the ridge line running between the rear of the lock panel and the front of the cheekpiece.  I think it needs just a bit of softening up.  I also think that the cheekpiece panel is a bit too wide as well as parallel and needs to be tapered from back to front.  Mind you that I am not a Lehigh expert by any means so take these comments for what they are worth.
David   

[Mike Lyons]

Thanks Mike and David.

[bama]

Afghanvet, you have picked a rifle design that is one of the most difficult designs to do correctly. All in all, with Mike's and Dave's input you have done a decent job with the build. You will find yourself going back over this build many times in your mind as time goes by. I hope that one day you will have the opportunity to handle a few original rifles of this design. When that opportunity does come, please take full advantage of it. You will notice many things right of the bat, and you will say, oh, this is what Mike and Dave were talking about.

I can remember the first time Louie Parker let me roll around one of his original Lancaster rifles. I saw so many things that I was not doing correctly. Everything from stock architecture to carving height to just about everything. I had good in letting down pat, fit and finish were good, metal prep was good, trigger and lock function were good, all of my building habits were good. What I did not have was how a original rifle felt. I joined the KRA and that opened the door to a new world of original rifles that I never had before. The CLA has a section for the collectors, all of these guys will let you hold their rifles. Spend time with them, ask questions, most are willing to share their knowledge. Many of these collectors are not knowledgeable about building practices, you will find that they are very interested in hearing your comments about how you think the old masters went about doing their work. Study each piece, you will find that this will help you more than anything.

As Mike said, you have the skills, now you just need the knowledge.

Good luck, best wishes

[Mike Lyons]

upload pic

Finally starting to hack the wood!!