Can someone please explain sharpening angles on a nick and dot cutter????

[Justin Urbantas]

I need to sharpen a new nick and dot cutter, but I don't understand how to get a 130° angle on it like Shippers suggests. I also need to make a shading cutter. Maybe I slept through geometry class in school. Figuring how he gets the angles confuses me. Here is the picture of the tool in image 149 from his book.

I have this adjustable angle fixture made by Dave Rase and a variety of stones and diamond stones to sharpen. Thanks guys.

[Metalshaper]

divide the 90  and 130  by 2... as you will shaping them on half of the 'included' < or total angle>
to sharpen the heel, on each of those, you would use a 15 degree angle I think??

Better people than me can tell you for sure!!

Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan

[G_T]

Each facet on a graver has what I'll call for the moment a pitch angle, and a roll angle. The pitch is how far it is tilted up, and the roll is how far it is tilted to the side.

The face of the graver for instance, that part which is mashed into the metal out front, has a pitch angle typically of 45 to 50 degrees (0 degrees being parallel with the axis of the graver and 90 degrees being a right angle, as if it were just sawed off square). It has a roll angle typically of 0 degrees (not tilted to either side).

Now if you look at the graver from the front, lined up with it, you'll see the bottom of the type of graver you are looking at looking like a V. The angle of that V determines the width of the cut compared to its depth. The narrower the V (or the sharper if you prefer) the deeper it will have to go to give the same width cut. The wider the V, the shallower it would need to cut for that width cut in the work surface.

130 degrees is probably the included angle of that V. It keeps you from having to plunge the graver too deeply into the work surface to get the width of the nicks. The bottom facets, forming that V, are rolled 25 degrees each way. 25 + 25 + 130 = 180 degrees.

I hope this helps some! It is easier with pictures.

Gerald

[Mike Brooks]

Schippers sharpens them wrong if you want to do it like they did in the old days. Take a square graver and sharpen it into a "V" shape with a slight curve on the sides....that's it, no measuring of angles required. Simple....it has to be if I can do it.

[jerrywh]

 There is at least five ways to cut a nick. Shipper's way is not wrong it is just unusual. But it is fairly simple. You can't sharpen the 130° graver with the fixture you showed. Maybe Lyndsay has a template for it?  I have done it t he way shippers does but prefer a different way.  I just use a flat graver.

[G_T]

Sorry when I typed in my post for some reason none of the pictures came through. Had I seen them, I wouldn't have bothered with the post. Sorry!

If Lindsay doesn't have a 130 uniform parallel point template, he'll have one very close. He also has a universal template where you can dial your angles, if I'm recalling correctly.

Gerald

[bama]

I am with Jerry on this, the easiest way to cut this boarder is to use a flat graver. It takes some practice but once you have the motion of how to rock the graver to form the cut then you will find that it is a fast way to cut it.

[jerrywh]

The best Nick and dot borders I have seen were done by Marty Rabino and Dave Crisalli. Smart dog and others do very well also. I have examined dozens of them under the microscope and the biggest problem seems to be trying too cut them too deep. No matter what kind or heal or geometry you have on a flat if you cut them too deep there is no way to come out of the hole and make it look good.  Cutting them the way shippers does id near fool proof but there is one trick to doing it right. When you come to the line or the end of the cut you must stand the graver up or you will over cut the line.

[Mike Brooks]

The best Nick and dot borders I have seen were done by Marty Rabino and Dave Crisalli. Smart dog and others do very well also. I have examined dozens of them under the microscope and the biggest problem seems to be trying too cut them too deep. No matter what kind or heal or geometry you have on a flat if you cut them too deep there is no way to come out of the hole and make it look good.  Cutting them the way shippers does id near fool proof but there is one trick to doing it right. When you come to the line or the end of the cut you must stand the graver up or you will over cut the line.

If you cut them like they were cut 200 years ago you don't have any of those problems. BTW, I cut them the way Lynton MacKenzie taught me. I don't think you'll find a better engraver than that man was.

[jerrywh]

Lynton McKenzie was a super good engraver in his day however there are a dozen engravers today much better than he was. He couldn't win engravers choice at the FEGA convention now days.  By the way he cut nick and dot the same way as Marty Rabino and most others do. The so called old fashion way.

[smart dog]

Hi Justin,
Steve Linday's "caligraphy" template comes very close to Schipper's angles.  It is what I use when doing nick and dots Schipper's way.  I use that method when I have long rows to do such as on the rear extensions of fowler trigger guards. It is the easiest way to keep good spacing and it is very quick but the scalloped shape ends up somewhat flat topped rather than round.  When I do a nick and dot in a place that will be a focal point, like a barrel tang, I do it Lynton McKenzie's way with a square graver and little flat. That way takes me longer but the results are better.

dave

[bama]

I never met Lynton but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express one time.  I learn to cut this boarder from Frank Bartlett and he cut it with a regular flat graver. I don't profess to be an expert and there are several on this board that way above my league. I cut this boarder with a No. 38 flat graver. I am not sure this is the nick and dot boarder you fella's are talking about or not, but here is what I call a nick and dot.

[Lucky R A]

Nice work Jim!  I suppose you now have Terry engraving like that, he will have to teach me...Ron

[bama]

Ron, Terry is coming this next week for class. I am going to show him everything I know to the best of my ability. I hope he enjoys the class and feels it was worth while.

[Justin Urbantas]

Thanks for the tips all. I'll be looking at templates and I'll try a flat graver.

[Mike Brooks]

Thanks for the tips all. I'll be looking at templates and I'll try a flat graver.

It has to be wedge shaped or it won't work.

[jerrywh]

Mike.
 Please explain what you mean by wedge shaped.