Author Topic: Alexander Henry Post Locked (Read 4385 times)

Dennis Glazener · « **Reply #25 on:** July 04, 2019, 01:59:46 AM »

Quote

Looking at the rules and mission statement posted on this site I would argue that English styled sporting rifles of the type in question here clearly fit these criteria. If moderators don’t want them discussed I think that is their prerogative but don’t think the decision is consistent with the above. Best
Zack

Zack,
Please explain your thoughts regarding the rules and the Alexander Henry rifle.
Dennis

Scota4570 · « **Reply #26 on:** July 04, 2019, 02:07:16 AM »

I suggest adding a forum to discuss other traditional ML firearms.

Sure there are other forums, unfortunately the depth of knowledge is pretty shallow. So much so I recently asked to be deleted from one such forum. I simply go tired of being shouted down by idiots.

I have ML interests that include other than FL long rifles. Shotguns, match rifles, Hawkins, match pistols, I enjoy them all. I try not to not discuss them here. Too bad because here we have the most knowledgeable folks anywhere. I could learn a lot from them. Being too narrowly focused may not be the best idea if being inclusive and encouraging younger people is part of the "mission". .

Taylorz1 · « **Reply #27 on:** July 04, 2019, 02:16:35 AM »

Alexander Henry and others were building rifles of this type well before 1860 both as sporting rifles and experimentally. These rifles were in use on this continent. I think this satisfies rules 1-4. I think that the stated mission also makes allowances for these rifles- again an excerpt-“it is also a home for all those crafts persons preserving a bit of the past by building traditional muzzle loading sporting firearms and their accoutrements. The mission of AmericanLongrifles.com is to promote and support the art and craft of building historically accurate long rifles, related firearms etc...” The language in both the mission statement and the rules makes allowances for “traditional muzzleloading sporting rifles” as well as “related firearms” specifically mentioned as not being longrifles.

smart dog · « **Reply #28 on:** July 04, 2019, 04:50:21 AM »

Hi Scota and Zack,
You both hit on a very important point in my opinion. I've been a member of this and several other muzzleloading gun forums since the early 2000s. In that time, I've noticed that the most committed and talented makers and scholars gravitate to this site because they sense it offers the best experiences, resources, and knowledge. However, not all of those folks are coming here from a strictly long rifle background and they would like to share their expertise. So, we may be experiencing some growing pains and have to figure out some good options. I believe this thread is helping.

dave

Taylorz1 · « **Reply #29 on:** July 04, 2019, 04:58:33 AM »

That’s really my motivation here. You can spend five minutes on here and see that the best builders and thinkers hang out here. I guess my bias is regardless of the rules or the bylaws or the mission statement I selfishly stand to learn something and become a better gun maker and gun historian if these kind of guns are allowed. But those are very selfish motivations. I personally do feel that they fall within the spirit of the site and also conform to the rules and mission statement but I’m very new here and talking way above my pay grade. I do so with the utmost respect to the moderators and everyone else on the site.

Bob Roller · « **Reply #30 on:** July 04, 2019, 03:30:58 PM »

This forum is SO easy to use and with the wide range of knowledge and interests
found here I can see no reason to leave it. No idiots are found here that I have
noticed and a wide range of talent is VERY noticeable.
Bob Roller

KentSmith · « **Reply #31 on:** July 04, 2019, 04:26:17 PM »

Well been coming here since before Mark Elliot handed the ALR over to Dennis. It is the americanlongrifles.com. I enjoy firearms of all kinds but am not particularly interested in studying firearms not having direct influence upon American Longrifles pre-Civil War. I have and like to shoot cartridge rifles, shotguns, would like to have and shoot a firearm typical of the Henry which is the topic of this conversation but could care less about building one. I am getting to be an old curmudgeon and really only enjoy flintlocks. I come to this site to learn about and enjoy earlier firearms. I would have no problem adding another category but do not want to have to wade through all the additional discussions in our main groups of topics. I would not want to add to the work the moderators already have by adding a new category but there it is, my opinion. I will visit regardless. just my two cents.

WadePatton · « **Reply #32 on:** July 04, 2019, 06:47:17 PM »

I understand that this is no democracy, but fully agree that there is no better collection of minds from which I and others could learn more about these guns.

Perhaps an additional section under General Discussion would keep things fairly sorted, allow our discussions of such, and we would not lose the character and reputation the ALR has earned.

That said, I'll further comment that I'd prefer a inclusive solution here in part because:

ANY
THING
BEATS
another lame "group page" on the Facebook! (no specific group in mind, just that FB pages are absolutely HORRIBLE for maintaining any sense of "Forum" organization and consistency. But unfortunately that's what everyone does now instead of setting up nice discussion forums.

but let us not get side-tracked into hacking on FB pages et al.

Thanks to the moderators and membership for this well-mannered and thoughtful discussion.

Clark Badgett · « **Reply #33 on:** July 04, 2019, 07:54:25 PM »

The simplest solution would seem to allow discussion of later era percussion arms in Over the Back Fence subforum. That would allow folks a place to bring up this sort of stuff around the truly talented people around here and keep the other areas free of the clutter of it.

smylee grouch · « **Reply #34 on:** July 04, 2019, 08:28:21 PM »

Interesting discussion so far and from what I have been able to understand civil and respectful so far. I am a huge fan of the English style gun, mostly early Manton style flintlocks but also admire/almost covet the early long guns of almost all countries. I guess I,m riding the fence. $:-\$

Bob Roller · « **Reply #35 on:** July 04, 2019, 09:53:39 PM »

The long range rifles as an Over the Back Fence discussion would be perfect IMHO.
My wife does Facebook and I want nothing to do with it.

Bob Roller

dsully · « **Reply #36 on:** July 05, 2019, 03:35:45 AM »

I don't see any reason why it can't be in the over the back fence section,when it's perfectly fine to have discussions about riding mowers,I don't think you have to worry about it trashing up the forum

rich pierce · « **Reply #37 on:** July 05, 2019, 04:01:31 AM »

No secrets; one of the issues is fairness and who knows what will be the next very interesting type of guns that requires a stretch to consider it an American longrifle or one of the sorts of earlier guns leading up to it?

Dilution of this site’s focus is not something desirable to all.

Taylorz1 · « **Reply #38 on:** July 05, 2019, 04:32:29 AM »

If the argument to be made is one of fairness I would say this- looking through the posts on here There are hundreds of posts about late percussion shotguns, english pistols, double rifles, late percussion halfstocks made likely just before and even after 1900, chunk guns from the 30s and 40s and “hog rifles” made after 1900 as well. The only thing these topics have in common with American longrifles is that some of the guns are long- many aren’t even rifles. I would also argue that these topics clearly fall outside the stated rules and mission statement yet they are tolerated/encouraged. If there is any unfairness it is directed against the bullet firing longrange guns being discussed in this topic.

hen · « **Reply #39 on:** July 05, 2019, 02:46:08 PM »

The word 'bullet' seems to define this topic perfectly.

WadePatton · « **Reply #40 on:** July 05, 2019, 04:45:31 PM »

The only rules that matter are those that are enforced.

When a thread is locked, the "letter of the law" has been enforced.

When a thread it locked, and the contributors/readers re-convene to have a discussion over the "letter of the law", perhaps it is time to examine the "spirit of the laws".

Appears that some feel the long-range guns should have their own independent forum somewhere else, to never contaminate the pure definitions of site and purpose as stated here. It also appears that these rules are bent now and then for other non-"pure" gun discussions.

Are the rules better bent (selectively enforced) or modified such that enforcement is predictable? Selective enforcement puts all the decision making on the enforcer. Modification of rules might make it more clear to all those charged with enforcement, as well as allow the group better understanding of how to abide by the rules.

In this particular case, when I saw a moderator taking part in the discussion, I thought it (the discussion) was in the clear, and then another mod/admin shuts the thread down two days after it was started. This is why I speak of "selective enforcement" and clear rules.

I don't know. It's not my place to say. I would like having the option to learn more about traditional/historic guns of the non-cartridge type, from the caliber of folks who inhabit this forum. But if the Masters say we shall not do such, then we sha'nt.

But also, as stated many times in this thread, I cannot think of a better place to engage in such learning. I simply don't have the resources or time or experience to set up a new forum to handle such a limited scope of guns, and would never dream of putting up anything duplicitous of this one.

Craig Wilcox · « **Reply #41 on:** July 05, 2019, 05:18:25 PM »

I really enjoy learning from this forum. It is a rare topic indeed that I don't learn from. For me to learn about "bullet rifles" is just an extension of topics to cover yet another type of firearm.
I wouldn't mind things of this sort that adhere to the spirit, if not the letter, of the rules, IF they are contained in a separate portion - the Over the Back Fence area would be good.
I do NOT want to dilute the "Long Rifle" portion of my learning. Yet is seems to me that the line has already been stepped over with the inclusion of the blunder busses, the pistols, etc. Let's try to contain the newer types of firearms to one area, though.

Taylorz1 · « **Reply #42 on:** July 05, 2019, 06:54:18 PM »

I agree with the above. I think the rules are applied selectively depending on the tastes of the moderator. It is more than ironic that the same moderator that closed the discussion on the Alex Henry is the same one Commenting on the “wicked” blunderbuss.

rich pierce · « **Reply #43 on:** July 05, 2019, 07:16:40 PM »

Timeframe matters under the current rules.

Taylorz1 · « **Reply #44 on:** July 05, 2019, 07:22:44 PM »

Which has been established that the guns fall within the timeframe published on the website.

Scota4570 · « **Reply #45 on:** July 05, 2019, 07:40:12 PM »

I have never really studied the rules and mission statement until now.

The Mission Statement includes:

The mission of AmericanLongrifles.org is to promote, preserve and support the traditional art and craft of building, collecting and using the American Longrifle. This would include accouterments and related arms of the period.

In part, ALR Rules/ Policies, Allowable topics are:

1. The building or recreation of custom side lock muzzle loading sporting arms that would have been made or used in North America between 1607 and 1860.

In the strictest sense the forum could be restricted to long rifles made by purely traditional non-modern techniques. That is a wonderful topic but is academic in today's world. There is only a hand full of builders who choose to shun all modern tools. We have had that discussion before. From a practical sense we have to accept modern techniques.

It appears that the forum rules and mission statement are in conflict. Many ML guns used later in period specified do not fit the mission statement. I suggest a forum for building other than long rifles. And building with modern tools. Maybe an anything goes Traditional ML builders forum? This would make the rules and mission more congruent . It would be more inclusive of beginners. It would promote, preserve and support building MLs by a much wider audience and still maintain the traditional arts side of the mission.

rich pierce · « **Reply #46 on:** July 05, 2019, 07:51:35 PM »

No wording is perfect. We could spend a lot of time on wording and most would not agree that it conveys what this forum is about. In part because for each of us it’s not exactly the same “thing” we get or want from this site, and in part because words mean different things to each of us. In seeking justice where there was conflict, Solomon proposed to cut a baby in half when 2 women claimed to be the baby’s mother.

In the use of the word “traditional” there was no intent to shun modern tools.

There’s an ongoing discussion among moderators about not just the bullet guns but other topics. Putting things in OTBF versus gun building would undoubtedly require a lot of moderator action and be confusing to anyone not glued to this conversation. Then we could debate whether Gun A or Gun B A) belong on ALR or B) belong in Gun Building or in OTBF. Meanwhile much attention is diverted from the American longrifle.

rich pierce · « **Reply #47 on:** July 05, 2019, 08:52:33 PM »

We’ve had good input on the topic of “what to leave in; what to leave out”. The moderators will continue to deliberate some changes and will post them here when we’ve achieved consensus. Thanks for good discussion. Locking this thread now so we can focus on making decisions.

Dennis Glazener · « **Reply #48 on:** July 05, 2019, 09:21:12 PM »

Guys please hold your thoughts on this, we are working on a solution but it takes time to get input from all our admins/moderators. This is a holiday weekend and several of us are out of town or have weeend guests. We have a general idea of what we can do but we need to look at in depth to avoid future problems.

Thanks
Dennis

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Author Topic: Alexander Henry Post Locked (Read 4385 times)