Author Topic: Polygon groove barrels for ball?  (Read 20518 times)

Daryl

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Re: Polygon groove barrels for ball?
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2011, 07:27:59 PM »

The most wide spread use of the belted ball was the result of many English and some other European's believing that the larger the ball the faster the twist had to be. This resulted in "bore" rifles with twists so fast that any charge of powder that would make the rifle useful for heavy game they would blow the patch. The answer? Fitted balls like the belted thing. I suspect they were shot patched. But I have no information on the loading of the Brunswick rifle etc. but I doubt the belted ball was shot "naked" it would have leaded and the lack of a patch with lube on it would have produced very hard fouling unless a lubed wad was used under it. It would also be difficult to keep it in the bore unpatched.

Sir Samuel Baker used one but the disadvantages already enumerated were noted by hunters like Forsythe who advocated shallow grooves and narrow lands coupled twists that many makers simply refused to accept as usable.
The silly part in all this is that the 20 bore Baker rifle was a slow twist with "modern" rifling and worked very well. There were writings in the 1830s in England that expounded on very slow twists. They also knew the "small bore"  American was a slow twist, but the one turn in the barrel was very close to 48" in the long barreled American rifle.  But they still ended up making short barreled heavy game rifles with one turn in a 24-28" barrel. The high inertia of the large ball was not able to start turning rapidly under initial acceleration (IMO) and the patch blew. So the powder charges were cut back to anemic levels.
Today we are hampered by the fact that we don't know the ball size, bore size, rifling form and patch used in examples such as this...
Forsythe writes:
"A Purdey rifle I once possessed, 13 bore, with a turn in 3 ft. 6in., invariably stripped if I gave it the least thing more than 1 3/4 drachms :---with that charge, it shot splendidly, but the elevation was excessive, the rise in its 100 yard trajectory being 11 inches, rendering it utterly useless and absurd for sporting purposes, that is, for shooting game in the field.

I think part of the problem was shooters in ENGLAND not wanting to use the charge of powder that would give accuracy with the slower twists they also liked light rifles. This needed powder charge was often far above what a shotgun of similar bore size would use. 5 to 6 drams (or even more) in rifles of 16 to 12 bore.

Dan

That is how I also understand the belted balls of the 19th century as well.  It was mainly an attempt to give greater hold to a patched ball, due to the fast twists commonly in use.  The belt(irregularity of friction in the air) caused problems with inconsistancy of flight which demanded even faster twists for stability, which demanded deeper grooving and higher sitting belts to hold, which demanded faster twists for stability, and etc.  Forsyth called this a viscious circle.

 Forsyth also stated that in England and Scotland, the use of dogs to collect wounded game was common, therefore to wound was almost as much the purpose as to kill outright, as the game was always brought to bag.  He stated that wounding was what the fast twist, small charged bore guns did best as they were very difficult to hit with, due to horrid trajectories.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Polygon groove barrels for ball?
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2011, 08:35:03 PM »
I had forgotten this passage.
Baker writes of hunting with dogs in Ceylon as well. Sometimes using a knife to kill deer and other animals being held by dogs.

Forsyth's book is a wonderful resource for people hunting with ML rifles.

His comments on "animals that fly at you" also puts things in perspective.
Dan
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 08:36:00 PM by Dphariss »
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Offline FL-Flintlock

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Re: Polygon groove barrels for ball?
« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2011, 06:03:19 AM »
The belted ball didn’t come about because of fast-twist rifling, fast-twist rifling came about because of the belted ball.  IIRC, the Baker rifles had a twist rate around 1:120 and when the Brunswick came out it had a twist rate around 1:70 with 11 grooves instead of 7.  The two-groove belted ball Brunswick barrels came next and the Bubba in charge ordered the twist rate increased to around 1:40 help improve the accuracy and subsequently the twist was again increased to about 1:30.  The belted balls were originally intended to be shot either naked or assembled into a paper cartridge, neither worked and what they ended up with for military use were undersize balls tied into a greased calico patch.  Despite the claims made by the Bubba’s in charge of ordering the guns, it is rather evident that the Baker rifle was the most respected for long range accuracy even long after the numerous modifications to the Brunswick rifles were made.  The service charge for the Brunswick ended up at 2.25 drams contained in a blank cartridge, the patched belted balls had to be carried and loaded separately.  Despite all the sales hype associated with the Brunswick, it was a major step backwards in military weaponry especially considering the old smoothbores and Baker rifles had fire rates nearly three times that of the Brunswick.  The Brunswick weighed in over 10.25 pounds making it somewhat heavier than the 9 pound Baker.

Here's a belted Brunswick ball, note the belt is made on a radius as opposed to the squared bearing band style belt of the balls intended to be loaded with the belt perpendicular to the bore.

« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 06:11:22 AM by FL-Flintlock »
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Polygon groove barrels for ball?
« Reply #28 on: August 11, 2011, 07:00:25 AM »
Forsyth discussing rifles with excessive twists and "stripping":
"Well, to remedy this, some long-headed individual introduced the two-grooved rifle, with a belted ball. A greater hold on the grooves was thus obtained, and a greater charge of powder employed..."
But the fast twist far predates the Brunswick and the other belted ball rifles.
We find a Revolutionary War Jaeger, the .62 Hesse-Cassel which DeWitt Bailey states was the most common rifle carried by the German Riflemen. The example detailed in "British Military Flinlock Rifles" has a 28" +- twist, 7 grooves "1/2 round grooves 1/8" wide and approximately .020" deep."
The Hanoverian-made Pattern 1776 Military rifle has a 27" twist for a 62 caliber. 7 grooves squared. Relieved at the muzzle about 3/4".
The Warriors grade Tatham presentation rifle (1816) in .58 caliber has a 26 1/2" twist 10 square grooves.

Not all were this way, the c. 1750 Benjamin Griffin rifle with a short 23 7/8" barrel of 70 caliber has 15 round grooves with a 72" twist.

Regardless the English and Europeans used these fast twists a great deal. The English, even though the Baker performed very well with a 120 gr of powder, still insisted on making fast twist rifles that stripped with heavy loads and were of little practical use in the field hunting game and were especially useless for heavy dangerous game. As a result a great many hunters used smooth bores for close range shooting of large game or as Baker did used a belted ball rifle. I think the two groove Baker used in Ceylon was a "2 ounce" or 8 bore.

Dan
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Offline FL-Flintlock

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Re: Polygon groove barrels for ball?
« Reply #29 on: August 11, 2011, 04:31:06 PM »
The Hanoverian design being considered at the same time the original Brunswick came out was an oval bore 1:75'ish twist capable of shooting a standard PRB.  The prototype Brunswick had 11 standard square grooves at 1:70'ish and when the change was made to two-groove & belted ball, the twist remained 1:70'ish until it was increased to 40'ish then 30'ish to try getting some kind of accuracy from the belted ball.  Forsyth wasn't involved with the Brunswick which was the Brit’s first documented attempt to use a belted ball with the belt running parallel to the bore, the Bubba in charge who selected the belted ball Brunswick was George Lovell.

Belted balls were nothing new at the time the Brit's got around to the Brunswick but the previous styles including those associated with the earlier two-groove barrels oriented the belt perpendicular to the bore opting to key the belt to the rifling thus eliminating the stripping in fast-twists but creating a projectile that still sucked for accuracy.  Earlier twin square style groove and the oval-bore (radius groove) rifles used standard PRB’s, not belted balls and performed quite well even at long ranges.  One must consider the fact that the Brit's lagged far behind much of the rest of Europe in weapons development and technology right up into the 20th century.  Better than a century after the Russian's pretty much perfected the shotgun choke, the Brit's were still insistent that the only way to increase shotgun range was to use a bigger bore and simply throwing a larger payload of pellets in the hopes some will connect.  Aside from the odd gun here and there, it also took about as long for the Brit's to finally figure out that one doesn't need 4+ feet of barrel to make an effective weapon just as they refused to accept the value of the superior sighting systems used by others as early as the 16th century.  By the time the Brit's were screwing with belted balls in the Brunswick, others in Europe were producing excellent long range accuracy with conical bullets for which the much faster rifling twist rates were required.  This boils down to the chicken or egg debate where in the case of the Brit’s, the egg being the belted ball came before the fast-twist chicken because the first belted ball Brunswick rifles were slow-twist and the faster twist rifling didn’t come about until later as they tried to get some kind of acceptable accuracy from the belted balls that others had long since culled as being worthless.  That’s not to say fast-twist rifling didn’t exist because we know it did, what the evidence shows is that the British belted balls did not come about as a result of the fast-twist rifling.
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Polygon groove barrels for ball?
« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2011, 03:01:42 PM »
The Hanoverian design being considered at the same time the original Brunswick came out was an oval bore 1:75'ish twist capable of shooting a standard PRB.  The prototype Brunswick had 11 standard square grooves at 1:70'ish and when the change was made to two-groove & belted ball, the twist remained 1:70'ish until it was increased to 40'ish then 30'ish to try getting some kind of accuracy from the belted ball.  Forsyth wasn't involved with the Brunswick which was the Brit’s first documented attempt to use a belted ball with the belt running parallel to the bore, the Bubba in charge who selected the belted ball Brunswick was George Lovell.

Belted balls were nothing new at the time the Brit's got around to the Brunswick but the previous styles including those associated with the earlier two-groove barrels oriented the belt perpendicular to the bore opting to key the belt to the rifling thus eliminating the stripping in fast-twists but creating a projectile that still sucked for accuracy.  Earlier twin square style groove and the oval-bore (radius groove) rifles used standard PRB’s, not belted balls and performed quite well even at long ranges.  One must consider the fact that the Brit's lagged far behind much of the rest of Europe in weapons development and technology right up into the 20th century.  Better than a century after the Russian's pretty much perfected the shotgun choke, the Brit's were still insistent that the only way to increase shotgun range was to use a bigger bore and simply throwing a larger payload of pellets in the hopes some will connect.  Aside from the odd gun here and there, it also took about as long for the Brit's to finally figure out that one doesn't need 4+ feet of barrel to make an effective weapon just as they refused to accept the value of the superior sighting systems used by others as early as the 16th century.  By the time the Brit's were screwing with belted balls in the Brunswick, others in Europe were producing excellent long range accuracy with conical bullets for which the much faster rifling twist rates were required.  This boils down to the chicken or egg debate where in the case of the Brit’s, the egg being the belted ball came before the fast-twist chicken because the first belted ball Brunswick rifles were slow-twist and the faster twist rifling didn’t come about until later as they tried to get some kind of acceptable accuracy from the belted balls that others had long since culled as being worthless.  That’s not to say fast-twist rifling didn’t exist because we know it did, what the evidence shows is that the British belted balls did not come about as a result of the fast-twist rifling.

According to George in "English Guns and Rifles" the issue Brunswick was always a 2 groove. While adopted in 1836 it was not actually in the hands of the troops until 1839. It was a very poor rifle. Far less accurate than the flintlock rifle it replaced that had slow twist conventional rifling. They were trying to make a more accurate rifle than the Baker, they failed miserably. But the prevailing wisdom of the time was that a faster twist was needed and the belted ball was needed to allow that twist.
This rifling form came about in the British sporting rifles because they were over twisting large bore sporting rifles, 12-8-4 bore, to the point of making them useless with conventional rifling. This is detailed by George.
 Samuel Baker's 2 groove rifle (the 2 ounce apparently was a 12 bore that used a 2 ounce conical according to George, he may have been familiar with the actual rifle) was in use in the 1850s and Forsyth was writing in the late 1850s. My reprint of "Sporting Rifle and its Projectiles" was originally published in 1863 just a few years before the self-contained cartridge breech loader began to really replace the ML.
By the 1850s the Brunswick had been mostly or wholly supplanted by the slow twist Rifle Musket in the major militaries of the world making the rifle companies, until that time elite units, obsolete.
But the belted ball lived on in the English sporting rifle.
Fast twists are required for bullets and elongated projectiles have a better grip on the grooves than the ball since their high inertia will cause the bullet to expand to groove diameter even if a relatively hard alloy. So the fast twists and bullets is apples and oranges to balls or belted balls. The British also experimented with and apparently produced a number of "winged" bullet rifles with mechanically fitted bullets some with 4 "wings" that engaged very deep grooves. Various shapes were tried. While these may have shot better than the belted ball in the hunting rifle of the time they were considered useless. A number of 19th century writers point this out, Greener, Samuel Baker and Forsyth.
Baker had a 4 ounce conical bullet mould made for his 21 pound  "3 ounce belted ball " "Devil Stopper" and "...it entirely destroyed is efficacy and brought me to such scrapes that I at length gave up the conical ball as useless." This was was written in the "Field"  in 1861. The charge in this belted ball rifle was 12 drams or 330 grains. If George is correct it likely had a twist of 1:30 or even fasters, too fast for conventional rifling to hold a patch with a spherical ball this size and this charge of powder. So the belted ball.
And yes the British knew the belted ball design dated to the 1620s. But its use in England appeared with the fast twists that made the conventional RB unusable. The interesting part is in rifles under 20-16 bore the English staid with the slow twists for the most part. And conventional rifling and balls

Dan
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Rasch Chronicles

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Re: Polygon groove barrels for ball?
« Reply #31 on: August 13, 2011, 10:31:39 AM »
You guys are an endless font of knowledge! I learn something on every post!

Thanks!

Best regards,
Albert “Afghanus” Rasch
Mama Domicenti’s Kitchen and Albert tries Market Hunting

Offline FL-Flintlock

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Re: Polygon groove barrels for ball?
« Reply #32 on: August 13, 2011, 04:16:27 PM »
Art Hare I think is one, there are several others as well that list the first Brunswick as having standard rifling of 11-grooves with about 1:70 twist.  The majority of historical sources show the twist rate of the first 2-groove was still about 1:70 and did not increase until later test models were produced.  Don't forget, at the time the English were messing with belted balls and rifling twists, they were already more than a century behind the learning curve.
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Daryl

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Re: Polygon groove barrels for ball?
« Reply #33 on: August 13, 2011, 07:12:05 PM »
 FL- note that when the 2 groove barrel for the Brunswick came out, the twist was 70"- then was increased to 40, then again to 30 in order to improve accuracy - this is exactly what Forsyth said in the book - the twist had to be increased because of the belt to improve accuracy.  You are right again, he didn't have anything to do with the Brunswicks but I don't hink anyone one said he did - IF he had helped in their development though, they'd probably have stayed with multigrooves, 120" twist and patched smooth round ball.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2011, 07:13:19 PM by Daryl »

Offline James Wilson Everett

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Re: Polygon groove barrels for ball?
« Reply #34 on: October 27, 2011, 04:10:21 AM »
About three years ago I made a 7 groove polygon rifled pistol.  The barrel was forged wrought iron and the rifling looked like a 7 sided Whitworth, 1 in 56.  To make the barrel I removed the round bottom groove cutter from a rifling rod and substituted a wide, flat vee shaped cutter (about 130 degree angle to the vee).  I rifled the bore until nearly all of the original bore surface was cut away.  This left a rifle bore with 7 flats.  After some lead lapping you could not see any original bore.

I did not notice any difference in either loading or shooting, but it looked really cool.  I probably will not do it again as the time to rifle the bore was nearly tripled as much more metal had to be removed.

Jim Everett

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Polygon groove barrels for ball?
« Reply #35 on: October 27, 2011, 04:00:43 PM »
One of our competitors at the last turkey match has a early CVA Mountian rifle with an 8 sided bore. Shoots RBs very well as did a the various original rifles cut in a similar fashion. I was busy at the match, 2 of us using the same rifle, and did not get a look at the barrel. The match overrode my curiousity.


Dan

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Re: Polygon groove barrels for ball?
« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2011, 09:22:09 PM »
What I was thinking of is an internal barrel profile similar to that used on Glock pistols; the twist adjusted for ball.

Offline yulzari

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Re: Polygon groove barrels for ball?
« Reply #37 on: July 28, 2019, 06:24:04 PM »
The Hanoverian design being considered at the same time the original Brunswick came out was an oval bore 1:75'ish twist capable of shooting a standard PRB.  The prototype Brunswick had 11 standard square grooves at 1:70'ish and when the change was made to two-groove & belted ball, the twist remained 1:70'ish until it was increased to 40'ish then 30'ish to try getting some kind of accuracy from the belted ball.  Forsyth wasn't involved with the Brunswick which was the Brit’s first documented attempt to use a belted ball with the belt running parallel to the bore, the Bubba in charge who selected the belted ball Brunswick was George Lovell.

Belted balls were nothing new at the time the Brit's got around to the Brunswick but the previous styles including those associated with the earlier two-groove barrels oriented the belt perpendicular to the bore opting to key the belt to the rifling thus eliminating the stripping in fast-twists but creating a projectile that still sucked for accuracy.  Earlier twin square style groove and the oval-bore (radius groove) rifles used standard PRB’s, not belted balls and performed quite well even at long ranges.  One must consider the fact that the Brit's lagged far behind much of the rest of Europe in weapons development and technology right up into the 20th century.  Better than a century after the Russian's pretty much perfected the shotgun choke, the Brit's were still insistent that the only way to increase shotgun range was to use a bigger bore and simply throwing a larger payload of pellets in the hopes some will connect.  Aside from the odd gun here and there, it also took about as long for the Brit's to finally figure out that one doesn't need 4+ feet of barrel to make an effective weapon just as they refused to accept the value of the superior sighting systems used by others as early as the 16th century.  By the time the Brit's were screwing with belted balls in the Brunswick, others in Europe were producing excellent long range accuracy with conical bullets for which the much faster rifling twist rates were required.  This boils down to the chicken or egg debate where in the case of the Brit’s, the egg being the belted ball came before the fast-twist chicken because the first belted ball Brunswick rifles were slow-twist and the faster twist rifling didn’t come about until later as they tried to get some kind of acceptable accuracy from the belted balls that others had long since culled as being worthless.  That’s not to say fast-twist rifling didn’t exist because we know it did, what the evidence shows is that the British belted balls did not come about as a result of the fast-twist rifling.

According to George in "English Guns and Rifles" the issue Brunswick was always a 2 groove. While adopted in 1836 it was not actually in the hands of the troops until 1839. It was a very poor rifle. Far less accurate than the flintlock rifle it replaced that had slow twist conventional rifling. They were trying to make a more accurate rifle than the Baker, they failed miserably. But the prevailing wisdom of the time was that a faster twist was needed and the belted ball was needed to allow that twist.
This rifling form came about in the British sporting rifles because they were over twisting large bore sporting rifles, 12-8-4 bore, to the point of making them useless with conventional rifling. This is detailed by George.
 Samuel Baker's 2 groove rifle (the 2 ounce apparently was a 12 bore that used a 2 ounce conical according to George, he may have been familiar with the actual rifle) was in use in the 1850s and Forsyth was writing in the late 1850s. My reprint of "Sporting Rifle and its Projectiles" was originally published in 1863 just a few years before the self-contained cartridge breech loader began to really replace the ML.
By the 1850s the Brunswick had been mostly or wholly supplanted by the slow twist Rifle Musket in the major militaries of the world making the rifle companies, until that time elite units, obsolete.
But the belted ball lived on in the English sporting rifle.
Fast twists are required for bullets and elongated projectiles have a better grip on the grooves than the ball since their high inertia will cause the bullet to expand to groove diameter even if a relatively hard alloy. So the fast twists and bullets is apples and oranges to balls or belted balls. The British also experimented with and apparently produced a number of "winged" bullet rifles with mechanically fitted bullets some with 4 "wings" that engaged very deep grooves. Various shapes were tried. While these may have shot better than the belted ball in the hunting rifle of the time they were considered useless. A number of 19th century writers point this out, Greener, Samuel Baker and Forsyth.
Baker had a 4 ounce conical bullet mould made for his 21 pound  "3 ounce belted ball " "Devil Stopper" and "...it entirely destroyed is efficacy and brought me to such scrapes that I at length gave up the conical ball as useless." This was was written in the "Field"  in 1861. The charge in this belted ball rifle was 12 drams or 330 grains. If George is correct it likely had a twist of 1:30 or even fasters, too fast for conventional rifling to hold a patch with a spherical ball this size and this charge of powder. So the belted ball.
And yes the British knew the belted ball design dated to the 1620s. But its use in England appeared with the fast twists that made the conventional RB unusable. The interesting part is in rifles under 20-16 bore the English staid with the slow twists for the most part. And conventional rifling and balls

Dan

This is an old thread but, just for the record for those reading archives, at it's introduction the Brunswick was rated in troop trials as easier to load than the previous Baker and with a 100 yard longer effective range. It remained in Imperial service for 50 odd years and was still being ordered for the East India Government in the 1860's (and I have an 1864 4th Pattern with it's Pattern 1853 type lock) and was still being ordered by minor and private users into the 1880's. Far from perfect but, at the time of ordering, it was an definite incremental improvement on it's predecessor. What was unfortunate was that it came out just as the French were carrying out the trials that led to the Delvigne and Thouvenin breeches and ultimately the Delvigne-Minie bullet. All of these allowed easier loading but they were all too late to be a part of the Brunswick. It was just at the end of the existing generation so superceded rapidly by the next generation of expanded bullets. The later reputation for difficult loading was merely a contrast to these later technologies. In it's original days it was commended for ease of loading over the Baker.  What was a failure was not updating them with winged bullets as were not only used by the Russians in their copy Brunswicks but more than one type was developed and trialled in Britain but never adopted despite success. The advent of the Pattern 1851 and the likely reluctance of the bean counters to pay for the necessary (the Russians changed to a Colt type sight when they went from belted ball to winged bullet in theirs) new sights etc. which would have kept the Brunswick a viable, if limited, supplement to the Enfield Rifle Musket family.

BTW George Lovell could be criticised for many things but a 'bubba' he was not and he was tireless in seeking higher standards of workmanship in small arms.

For a different take on polygonal rifling and the Brunswick rifle see https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/britishmilitariaforums/sergeant-major-robert-moore-ra-hexagonal-bore-brun-t24194.html
« Last Edit: July 28, 2019, 06:28:49 PM by yulzari »
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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Polygon groove barrels for ball?
« Reply #38 on: July 28, 2019, 06:57:19 PM »
Bill Large replicated Harry Pope's system in his round ball barrels and they
were very accurate. N.G. Whitmore,the maker of fine target rifles in N.Y and
Mass. made 12 groove gain twist barrels that were considered as unfair in
competition according to Major Ned Roberts. Tests of the Grant rifle made
by Whitmore at 110 yards using a pin head front sight and the tang sight
put 10 shots on a lid from a box of percussion caps.As far as is known,that rifle was
never fired again by any one and that's a shame.
I have heard of belted balls and finned projectiles but claim no experience or
knowledge about them.I owned a Whitworth semi military match rifle from
1962 until 1973 with an Alex Henry barrel in .451 and using a grooved,lubed
bullet got fine accuracy. In 1963,shooting from a rest at 100 yards I got a
group with10 shots a quarter covered.I never again did that and I was even
more surprised than the others that saw it. One man was watching with a
spotting scope said,"I don't know who you are or anything about that rifle
but you have an unbelievable target out there". My bullet was the Sharps/Bailey
made by Lyman and was called 451112.It weighed 485 grains.The shooting was
done at the old Armco Steel's shooting range near Ashland,Ky.

Bob Roller



Offline JCKelly

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Re: Polygon groove barrels for ball?
« Reply #39 on: July 29, 2019, 12:00:15 AM »
Kinda think rifling styles get reinvented every few generations. Last Groundhog Day this circa 1750 German pistol would not permit me to pass by the table.



Nice pistol. But 'twas the (seven-sided) rifled barrel finally did it for me.



Offline Scota4570

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Re: Polygon groove barrels for ball?
« Reply #40 on: July 29, 2019, 12:42:28 AM »



Someday I will make or have made a barrel with Pope style rifling.  Harry Pope's  idea was to give maximum grip on the bullet with minimal distortion of the bullet.  He certainly knew his stuff with lead bullets.  I see no reason why it would not work well with patched balls.

Offline yulzari

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Re: Polygon groove barrels for ball?
« Reply #41 on: July 29, 2019, 01:56:11 AM »
Looks similar to Henry rifling.
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Offline kudu

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Re: Polygon groove barrels for ball?
« Reply #42 on: July 29, 2019, 11:44:20 PM »
i own a Barrel Made by Hugh Toejes  That has 5 lands and wide grooves its a 50. cal The grooves are round bottom Its likes a real thick patch. and teflon patching works great I recently shot 9 balls thru one hole about 1 7/8 big. at 50 yards. real lucky for me Cant see the sights good enough