barrels for a double flint

[Justin Urbantas]

So, I've come across this set of barrels for sale. They're new old stock barrels made for a flint double. My question is about the cut outs in the side of the barrels.  They are .650 from back of breech to front of the cut, and .150 deep.  Looking at the John Bailes lock I have here, that cut out would have to be about 1" to have room for the bolster to fit, and to get a 1/4" vent liner in that lines up with the pan.  Is this something I can hacksaw/file to 1", and use a Bailes lock, or is this something for a different sort of lock? I know left handed locks are limited.  I don't have the barrels in hand, so I also don't know how the mainspring interferes with the barrels.  I'm trying to visualize how it would all come together to decide if I should buy them.  Thanks

[smart dog]

Hi,
Those barrels look to be made for stepped breech locks.  Even if you cut the step longer to fit L&R Bailes locks, you may have trouble with clearance for the lock bolt.  In my opinion, the "Bailes" locks are too large and the curve to the plate makes for clumsy, awkward looking double guns.  If I were building one, I would order Manton or Nock left and right lock part sets for double guns from TRS and build the locks.

dave

[L. Akers]

The locks used on inset breech guns must be modified by creating a step in the lockplate bolster which corresponds to the step in the breech.  The frizzen screw will have to be modified or a new one made.

[Bob Roller]

Hi,
Those barrels look to be made for stepped breech locks.  Even if you cut the step longer to fit L&R Bailes locks, you may have trouble with clearance for the lock bolt.  In my opinion, the "Bailes" locks are too large and the curve to the plate makes for clumsy, awkward looking double guns.  If I were building one, I would order Manton or Nock left and right lock part sets for double guns from TRS and build the locks.

dave

As a lock maker I will not make any more of these paired lock from the TRS parts
and I did make my own mechanisms. I made 2 pair.The Henry Nock and the Manton.
It took 9 months to get them and took a lot of work to even get started. TRS is a
well intentioned shop but using antique locks as mould masters seldom works out well.
Bob Roller

[smart dog]

Hi Bob,
I probably would order the lock plates, frizzens, flint cocks, tumblers, and possibly the sears and then make all the rest of the parts from scratch. 

dave

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Justin:  I made a double 12 gauge with stepped breeches like the barrel set you're looking at.  I used an antique twist steel barrels and made my own breech plugs with guidance from Brockway's book on making these things.  It turned out ok, and I used L & R's small Bailes locks.  I recommend you buy the barrels, the book (Recreating the Muzzle Loading Shotgun _ Wm. Brockway) and a pair of those locks.  My buddy Cody Tetachuck also built a really nice double using L & R's Ashmore (Hawken locks, but modified them extensively.
Here's a few pics of the lock and breech areas of my build...

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Here's a couple pics of Cody's work...

[Bob Roller]

Hi Bob,
I probably would order the lock plates, frizzens, flint cocks, tumblers, and possibly the sears and then make all the rest of the parts from scratch. 

dave

Dave,
I bought the external parts only and made the rest like I did with the L&R's and Late Chambers Ketland.
MAYBE I used the frizzen springs but it has been a very long time,maybe sometime in the mid 1990's.
I can't time frame it and kept no receipts.Lock making has no more appeal or interest for me and with
my wife's health issues I am not 100% sure about the triggers but I do plan to get as many ready as
possible.
Bob Roller

[Justin Urbantas]

Well, I bit the bullet, and bought the barrels. Taylor, I do have Brockway's book, and one Bailes lock, now I just need a lefty one, some furniture, and a thick piece of walnut.  This will be a 2021 project probably. Oh, the barrels are 28 ga.
.

[Justin Urbantas]

Justin:  I made a double 12 gauge with stepped breeches like the barrel set you're looking at.  I used an antique twist steel barrels and made my own breech plugs with guidance from Brockway's book on making these things.  It turned out ok, and I used L & R's small Bailes locks.  I recommend you buy the barrels, the book (Recreating the Muzzle Loading Shotgun _ Wm. Brockway) and a pair of those locks.  My buddy Cody Tetachuck also built a really nice double using L & R's Ashmore (Hawken locks, but modified them extensively.
Here's a few pics of the lock and breech areas of my build...

Great looking shotguns, Taylor. I hadn't even thought about cutting the bolster back on the Bailes lock to fit it to the step. Brilliant solution!!

[alacran]

I have only seen two or three flint doubles. All of them looked terrible to me around the breech. I realize after reading these posts that the ones I have seen did not use a stepped breech.  Taylor both you and your friends Cody's guns have a very pleasing breech area. The workmanship I will describe as elegant.

[Pukka Bundook]

Justin,

It is as well this will be a 2020 project , as it is best if you read all you can, and study all specimens you can find before you plunge into this.
It is complex, and there are a million ways to get it wrong, but only one way to get it right.
Altering a commercial lock to make an inset breech is not easy to do. The pan and hammer (frizzen) need to be much deeper. By this I mean wider so that this specific area fits into the inset breech.   To do it right will really mean making these parts and fitting them correctly.
See photo below for an idea on this;


It may be easiest to just file the breeches back to create a double without the inset.  This can be done well and still be pleasing, especially if the breeches are patent, and the breech can safely be well filed back, see photo below.
I would credit this photo but no clue where I got it now.





I can pull a lock from one with inset breech if you like, but at this stage think it best if you go with the fit as above.

Click on photo to enlarge.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

The set of barrels you have pictured, Justin, have milled flats on the sides that appear to be parallel to the bore.  These flats are best if they are tapered....narrower at the back and flared significantly at the forward end.  That permits the locks to also lay on the stock at a taper creating a nice narrow wrist yet diverge allowing for the width of the barrels.  I'm not sure there is enough metal left in your set of barrels to accomplish that.

[Pukka Bundook]

Taylor,

You are quite right in your obsevations.
It all depends on whether these barrels are fitted with patent chambers, which May prove to leave enough barrel wall for the required taper.

[Justin Urbantas]

The barrels are fitted with patented beeches, but I don't know how thick the walls are. I hope the breeches were put in with anti seize when installed.  I'll know more when they're delivered.  I think I got a steal at $275 USD for the set.

[Pukka Bundook]

THat's  a very good price, Justin!