Making a comfortable stock

[EricFL]

Hi everyone,

I made a cardboard cutout of my rifle from the plan and I've been messing around with getting as comfortable a trigger reach as I can while trying to keep within the lines of the rifle. I measured 15" from my "trigger spot" on my finger to the inside of my elbow.

The thing is that the way the wrist sweeps back, I have to twist my arm up and my wrist up in a weird position to get to the trigger. I added a 1" cutout of the butt to extend the stock, and it helps a little bit.

I am wondering if the discomfort is because it's a flat cutout and not a 3-dimensional stock where the hand holding is more natural? Or are there any taller/longer in the arm members who ran into this same problem and have a solution?
When I held my dad's rifle I didn't recall any problem like this so I suspect it is just my cardboard, but I just want to make sure.

This is the Tennessee rifle plan from Track of the Wolf.

This is the first of many questions I will probably torture you guys with, so I will thank you in advance! 

Eric.

[FG1]

Im a dainty 6'6" and 280 lbs . My lop is 15" to 15 1/2" (depends on butt width)with 2-3/4" drop at cheek weld and 3/8" cast off at butt if that helps . I arrived at that by taking wood off till it was comfortable years ago and stick to it for my personal guns .

[rich pierce]

Yes, the beauty of building a rifle for yourself is you can keep the comb high, the cheekpiece fat and the stock long till you get it to where it fits, then put the buttplate on.  You WILL have to sort of establish the wrist and bring the stock to near-width to do this.

[northmn]

There is more than one factor in making a comfortable stock.  LOP is one and has to be considered for the rifles use.    Where I hunt in Northmn a hunting rifle needs a little shorter pull as it will be used with heavier clothing, often layered as temps can be below freezing and we hunt in a stand.  I used to use a 14.25 inch pull for summer target rifles but have shortened that about an inch for hunting and general use.  Also you have the drop at the comb which is as important.  Modern rifles, even if equipped with iron sights do not have enough drop to use the sights well as they are designed for a scope.  A longer necked person may require more than a shorter necked person.  Since I am of "average" build I use about a 2-3inch drop at the cheek or about a 3" at the butt.  You can shoot a too short stock easier than you can adapt to one too long.  Cast off is a matter of rifle style.  Wide buttplates can benefit from cast off, narrow ones like your Tennessee may not. It also a matter of cheek piece design as many are made a little too ponderous.  The old elbow to finger measurement does not generally hold.  Do not put finish on your rifle before you you determine what fits.  Use another rifle and tape on spacers or use a slip on butt pad to get a general idea of length.  As I stated before.  Too long is not as adaptable as a little short.
DP

[Don Getz]

EricFL........Can I assume you might be someone by the name of Eric, and you might be from Florida.   Your profile shows
me nothing.   If I am wrong, and you might live in the northeast part of the country, I would suggest you make a trip to
Pennsylvania, just west of Allentown, this coming weekend.   At Dixon's muzzleloading shop there will be big doings.
You could try many stocks and possibly find something that would fit.  If not, try to look at some guns before you build,
try to get an idea of what you are trying to do before you do it..............Don

[Dphariss]

Depends on the caliber.
A 54-62 is not going to work well with a squirrel rifle stock.
Comfortable stock for over 58 cal.


But its not right for a Kentucky.
Kentucky style stocks for rifles over 50 need to be carefully designed.

Dan

[Swampwalker]

EricFl;
The stock Dan shows may not be a longrifle, but what makes it a comfortable stock in large measure is that the curvature to create the drop occurs at the back of the lock, and the bottom line of the stock is basically straight from this point to the toe.  The moves the right hand to a more natural position.  It is very similar in basic architecture to rifles of the Lancaster school, which is one reason why that style is so popular.   I would suggest you make a try stock out of a piece of 2 X 6 pine, attach a nail for a trigger, and if possible, mount the triggerguard, as that has a very large effect on the position of the right hand during shooting (assuming you're right handed, of course). 
Good luck.
Dave

[T*O*F]

Another thing to consider is that the TN style rifle, if you are using the deeply curved buttplate,  is designed to be shot from the bicep rather than the shoulder.

[jmforge]

Depends on the caliber.
A 54-62 is not going to work well with a squirrel rifle stock.
Comfortable stock for over 58 cal.


But its not right for a Kentucky.
Kentucky style stocks for rifles over 50 need to be carefully designed.

Dan

Hey Dan,
Is that a Manton style rifle or a hybrid?

[Dphariss]

 Its a Manton style 16 bore. Has a Manton recessed breech rifle lock built from TRS castings.

Dan

[Long John]

Eric,

Making a cardboard try-stock is not a bad idea - but it MUST have the same thickness as the real stock!  Otherwise all teh conclusions you are drawing from the "fit" will be wrong!   When I first started in the gun-making journey I made a cardboard try-stock by gluing about 1o layers of corugated cardboard togehter and then using a really sharp knive to darve the cardboard away to yield a stock.  I am 6'1" and lost would consider me on the lanky side.  Yet I foung that a 14.25" LOP was actually a little too long!  My new rifle is being built with a 14.00 LOP (if I remember correctly).  Unless you are a pro-basketball player you might find 15 " way too long when you have a real rifle.

When I build a rifle for some on I strive to shape the stock so that the shooter can shoulder the rifle with his/her eyes closed and when he/she opens his/her eyes there is no adjustment of the head to obtain proper sight picture.  Most adults need about 1/4 inch cast-off and about 3" of drop at the heel to achieve this.  Individual measurements vary depending upon the physique of the intended shooter.

Before you do too much wood cutting go to a gun store and try on some guns to see if you find one that really fits.  Shotguns are the best to try, espcially the imported side-by-side doubles as they are ofthe built with some cast-off in the stock.

Good luck!

JMC

[EricFL]

Thanks to all of you for the advice and help. (I apologize about my profile, I am indeed from Florida. I wish I could get up there to Dixon's.)

The only other rifle I have is a Mosin Nagant M44 carbine, but it is too short for me. I usually shoot it with the soft bag over my shoulder to help with the reach (and that recoil.)

I think I will make a testing stock with a softer wood or layered cardboard as suggested to get some fitting ideas. I'll also head over the pawn shop to try a few rifles for fit there too.

Thanks again everyone,


Eric.

[northmn]

Most milsurp rifles were built for small people.  The 03 Springfield was famous for belting someone in the nose if they did not lay the thumb along side the grip.  However the M44 does have enough drop for iron so that you can take a slip on recoil pad or other shims and use that to help find the length.  The sight will be a little higher so that you would want to add about 1/2 inch drop.

DP

[James Rogers]

Drop at nose of comb is probably the most important factor. LOP can be anything comfortable to the individual as long as it is not so long that it can't mounted correctly and with ease and not so short as to bust your nose with your thumb. Too much is made over LOP. Consider clothing options and comfort of mounting.

One thing to keep in mind is that if you like a stock except for the LOP you will not be able to use any of those other measurements if it has any bit of a descending comb line. LOP is the most forgiving of all the factors but all other measurements are built on a pre-chosen pull.

Also a canned set of measurements may or may not work. For example, cast will vary with the thickness of the comb of a particular gun.

Speaking of those milsurps.....the Brit Enfield has so much drop at nose of comb, I would have to weld my bottom jaw bone to the stock to see the sights. ;

[frogwalking]

I bought an Italian two band Enfield a few years ago as I thought it was purty.  I finally decided that they must shoot differently than we do in order to manage that board straight stock.  I once took my shotgun powder flask by mistake.  No big deal.  Smallest throw from the spout was 80 grains, not much different from the 60 gr ormal load.  One does notice it with the comb of the stock firmly planted in ones ear,  however.  When I retire, I intend to saw slit the front sight base and pin in a higher front blade.  I know the original was point blank at 100 meters, but I like 5o or 60 better.  (It is easier to hit something at 50.)

[jmforge]

Most milsurp rifles were built for small people.  The 03 Springfield was famous for belting someone in the nose if they did not lay the thumb along side the grip.  However the M44 does have enough drop for iron so that you can take a slip on recoil pad or other shims and use that to help find the length.  The sight will be a little higher so that you would want to add about 1/2 inch drop.

DP

You hit that one right on the head, especially as it relates to the WW1 era rifles,  I have a 1909 Argentine DWM Mauser which, by all accounts, is one of the finest Mausers ver made, but the stock looks like it was made for a midget body builder.  The butt is VERY short, but it still has that 29 inch barrel hanging out the front.  I wonder how much soldiers actually grew in the intervening years because the stocks of the M1 and M14 are proportioned more like a modern sporting rifle, at least to my eye.

[northmn]

Since this is a BP site I will mention the military weapons of the era.  Many Brown Bess muskets I saw at Fort William in Thunder Bay had the cheek area scooped out so that they would not bruise the cheek like my repo did me.  The military weapons were all tailored to some obscure form of shooting theory or maybe simple economy as straight stocks permit more stocks per board for production.  Same went for the NWTG which the Natives complained about being too straight.  Fit on a rifle is not as critical as on a shotgun where eye position is the rear sight.  Jack O'Connor once mentioned that he was puzzled as to why people worry so much about rifles and less about shotguns as one can contort to see rifle sights and still do a fair job of shooting.  A comfortable fit on a rifle is one in which the sights come up and are easy to acquire in a variety of positions.  When I mentioned the LOP on my rifles they were made for offhand match shooting in shirtsleeves.  For hunting I like to find rests or lean the gun up against something.  As Capt Jas stated, drop at the comb is the most important because it permits sight acquisition  Another factor is the fade away at the cheek contact as some, especially with cast off can belt you in the cheek if in a large caliber.


DP

[jmforge]

Since this is a BP site I will mention the military weapons of the era.  Many Brown Bess muskets I saw at Fort William in Thunder Bay had the cheek area scooped out so that they would not bruise the cheek like my repo did me.  The military weapons were all tailored to some obscure form of shooting theory or maybe simple economy as straight stocks permit more stocks per board for production.  Same went for the NWTG which the Natives complained about being too straight.  Fit on a rifle is not as critical as on a shotgun where eye position is the rear sight.  Jack O'Connor once mentioned that he was puzzled as to why people worry so much about rifles and less about shotguns as one can contort to see rifle sights and still do a fair job of shooting.  A comfortable fit on a rifle is one in which the sights come up and are easy to acquire in a variety of positions.  When I mentioned the LOP on my rifles they were made for offhand match shooting in shirtsleeves.  For hunting I like to find rests or lean the gun up against something.  As Capt Jas stated, drop at the comb is the most important because it permits sight acquisition  Another factor is the fade away at the cheek contact as some, especially with cast off can belt you in the cheek if in a large caliber.


DP

Good questions, sir.  I haven't seen the number fo firearms that some of you have, but what I have seen leads me to believe that the pistol grip stock was a fairly late innovation at least as applied to commonly available longarms.  To me, a straight stock has always meant one without a pistol grip, but in looking at these older guns, I can see how that term may be used to describe different things.