Making a hook breech

[sqrldog]

 In order to separate this info into a different  thread I have started a new topic to keep from cluttering up the for sale topic on a search for a hooked English breech.  I posted the original pictures of a breech I filed using a good grade bolt a nd a piece of barrel.  It really isn't a difficult project to complete using simple hand tools and a few layout lines. I originally created this type of breech for left hand trade rifles built for my sons back in 1982. Both rifles have interchangeable barrels 40. Cal. and .54 Cal. 15/16" barrels across the flats with nipple and drum percussion.  I am not a fan of putting a drum straight into a thin walled .54 cal. rifle for obvious  reasons. The breeches on these rifles are counter bored to .375 deep enough to allow the drum threads to be in the barrel and breech plug. If a person wanted a larger standing breech simply use a larger barrel and mill or file the larger flats not needed off. The breech will work just as well with a flint ignition system. My friend William Young in Wahkon Mn. suggested this system those may years ago. I'll try to post a few pictures of the filed out breech on one of the rifles.

[msellers]

Thanks for sharing this with us all.
Mike

[sqrldog]

Pictures of a flint beech for a smooth bore. These are the same as posted in the for sale post. Shows a little different perspective of the breech and tang.

[smart dog]

Hi Sqrldog,
Nice job but let me make some suggestions.  A standing breech benefits from having either a lug on the bottom for a cross pin through the stock, or enough metal on the bottom to thread a screw coming up from the bottom of the stock under the trigger guard. Those features are historically correct and they anchor the bottom of the breech firmly in the stock.  I prefer the slot to be tapered toward the top as well as the hook so it snugs in tightly when in final position. Most British guns in the flintlock era had breeches so constructed and the hooks fit as snugly today as they did when the gun left the shop. I also prefer a shorter more rounded hook so there is less chance it will interfere with the rear lock bolt.  The standing breech below was welded together and is copied from original British folwers.
 










dave

[sqrldog]

Nice job Dave. I didn't intend to build a correct Fowler. I was just cobbling together two left handed interchangeable barrel trade guns for my 12 and 13 year old sons. I simply put it up as a way of making a homemade breech. Yours is really more correct for your Fowler no doubt. Since I had to fit two breech plugs to each of the tangs straight worked best for me. I think at that time I owned maybe three files. Others can use modify or discard. The ones I made over 37 years ago still lock up tight.

[ScottH]

Thank you both for the great pictures of how someone might make these.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Dave:  thanks for this little treatise on standing/hooked breeches.  I was unaware of the taper to the male/female parts...it makes such perfect sense.  How could I have not thought of it myself?  The clock up pin or screw in the bottom of the standing breech should be considered essential.  The stock of these guns is especially fragile through the lock/breech section, and trying down the breech end of the barrel, eliminating any flexing there, is vital for strength and for accuracy, especially in a rifle.  Strange that Hawken rifles don't have that feature, yet, English rifles do.

[Bob Roller]

Absolutely there should be a vertical screw into the standing breech.I have made two rifles with this,
a Long Range Henry styled rifle and the other was a rebuild for E.M.Farris in the early 60's.that was
wrecked in shipping from Eastern Canada.It IS astounding as Taylor mentioned about just how flimsy some guns are
in the breech/tang/lock and trigger section.The reason Hawken rifles didn't have the screw in the standing breech may have been
that the methods they had to drill a hole plus the gambling involved in tapping a blind hole may have been a factor.....maybe.

Bob Roller

[Jeff64]

Assuming these came in round barrel versions too?  Any differences?

[smart dog]

Assuming these came in round barrel versions too?  Any differences?

Yes, a rounded standing breech instead of octagon. Lug for cross pin still there.

dave

[alacran]

To Taylor and Bob maybe  Hawken didn't see a need for that.  Their rifles had a robust trigger plate bolted together with the long tang to reinforce the wrist. But then you both know that.
I can see the need for the pin or screw on a round hook and breech, to keep the barrel plumb in the stock.

[smart dog]

Here are photos of 2 originals, one for octagon and the other for a round barrel.  They date from the 1760s.  The modern one is from TOW and is the largest they sell.  Still too small and no lug.

dave

 

[Craig Wilcox]

Interesting and practical idea!
I am currently build a Don Stith version of the J & S Hawken St. Louis rifle.  Of course, it does have a standing breech, but I had never thought of a small lug to take a vertical screw from the bottom.
I have a good friend with a welding shop, and I will see if he can TIG on a small lug - shouldn't ne too hard for a guy who repairs farm equipment.
Many thanks for helping me to stay safe!

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Craig:  although it won't hurt to add the pinning lug, I don't think it is necessary on a Hawken rifle.  Alacran's observations about Hawken construction are spot on.  The Hawken has a long and robust tang and trigger plate that sandwich the stock with two tang 'bolts', normally #10 x 32 tpi screws.  On an English fowling piece, the standing breech is secured with but one tang bolt, and so the added stability of the cross pin through the bottom of the break-off is a sound idea.  I've built close to two hundred Hawken rifles and have never seen one crack through the lock bolt as I have seen on half stocked rifles with a short tang and one tang screw.