Author Topic: Idenitfying a barrel  (Read 1860 times)

Offline General

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Idenitfying a barrel
« on: December 06, 2019, 03:08:24 AM »
  I purchased this signed "J K" cap barrel a couple years ago and want to restock it.  I would like to find out, if possible, who the original builder was so I can get it back to basically what it was.  I am no professional builder so I say close to.  Any information would be appreciated.  The barrel is 43 1/16" with a slight swamp, 1" breech, 15/16" waist and 1" muzzle.  It has 4 underlugs, very small front and rear sights.  It has the smallest barrel for the nipple that I've ever seen and the tang is curved 3 1/2" long with one screw hole.  I don't know if there any tell tail parts to give it away or not.  The breech plug is not seated completely as I don't want to create any unnecessary marks on the barrel.  Thanks all, General 


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« Last Edit: December 06, 2019, 05:08:23 AM by General »
Best Wishes to all
                  George Patton

Offline Daryl

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Re: Idenitfying a barrel
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2019, 03:59:47 AM »
What's the interior like. Appears quite rusty, but hard to tell.
Second picture from the bottom. Ah - front sight.
The rocks are nicely in focus.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline General

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Re: Idenitfying a barrel
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2019, 04:02:12 AM »
 The rifling is great but its pretty dark in the well.  I think I can work most of it out.  I haven't decided if I will shoot it or just hang it. 
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                  George Patton

Offline Cades Cove Fiddler

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Re: Idenitfying a barrel
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2019, 04:32:48 AM »
 :o :o... any idea what area the barrel is from,...?.. where was it found,...?...what calibre ? ... it has great looking sights and tang, which seems to be turned one more flat,... I have one Tennessee rifle with a 4 inch spear-point barrel tang with one hole similar to yours, however, mine is unmarked,... hope you can I.D the signature,... great idea to have it re-stocked,... !!! ... regards, Cades Cove Fiddler...

Offline General

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Re: Idenitfying a barrel
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2019, 04:48:09 AM »
  I acquired it in Vernal Ut at a gun show.  I have no idea where it originated.
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                  George Patton

Offline General

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Re: Idenitfying a barrel
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2019, 04:53:40 AM »
  I think it's either a 38 of a 40 cal.  The tang isn't seated all the way so it is off one flat right now.  I'm trying to find out the origin, school and so forth so I can get the correct wood, lock, triggers etc. so I can get it pretty close to the original build.  I have tried my hand at carving so I hope it doesn't go that direction  ;).  Thanks
« Last Edit: December 06, 2019, 05:04:52 AM by General »
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                  George Patton

Offline FALout

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Re: Idenitfying a barrel
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2019, 05:51:03 AM »
I doubt you are ever gonna replicate what it was from just a barrel.  Even if you can find the builder, could he really remember what he did from just a barrel?  I know, barrel looks old.   If you are gonna build with this barrel, your gonna need to pull the breach and clean out the bore, first to see if bore is any good from one end to the other, next you need to make sure the breach plug is seating properly.  I wouldn’t worry about the finish of the barrel, you will need to refinish it, not likely to build around it and not scratch or mar in some way.  Good luck on this quest.
Bob

Willbarq

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Re: Idenitfying a barrel
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2019, 07:45:37 AM »
Here's a Joseph Mills ala Bedford ,Pa and immigrant to Ohio. Similar


Signed in a similar way..associates?

Offline General

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Re: Idenitfying a barrel
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2019, 08:14:44 PM »
Thank you all for the comments.  I find it interesting that they could make such fine lines back in their day.  Willbarq, they are very similar and you do have to wonder.  Could you send me an email with some photos of the rest of that one unless you would like to share them here?  What type of underlugs and tang does it have?  I haven't been doing this very long and have never laid eyes on this type before.  I like the concept of being able to remove the lock and tang screw to let the barrel slide forward, up and out without have to remove the barrel pins.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2019, 12:32:21 AM by General »
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                  George Patton

Offline Elnathan

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Re: Idenitfying a barrel
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2019, 10:18:41 PM »
I believe that that kind of slide-out underlug is occasionally found on rifles made in the Valley of Virginia - IIRC, Pete Alexander mentions them in connection with the Sheetz family in his book on building longrifles. My copy is in storage and inaccessible at the moment, so I can't look it up. I don't know if the method  was used elsewhere or not, or how common it was in VA, but that might be a starting point for you.

I like the idea too, as it would seem to combine the advantages of barrel keys without the added complications of building and the risk of losing the keys. However, it could only be used with straight or near-straight barrels and possibly only with certain shapes of barrel tang, and I suspect that it would work best with barrels that had the rear-most barrel lug out in front of the entry pipe. That way, once the screw through the breechplug tang was removed, the forestock could bend slightly and let the tang rise up out of the stock enough to let it slide forward. With a lug in the more rigid area behind the entry pipe, the breechplug tang mortise would have to be undercut considerably to allow the barrel to slide forward enough.

Simple enough in concept, but possibly rather fiddly to get to work well in practice.
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Offline General

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Re: Idenitfying a barrel
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2019, 12:44:48 AM »
  Elnathan, I appreciate your comments and I will look into some Virginia rifles for more.  That is a great thought of the curved tang not being able to slide also.  Thank you
Best Wishes to all
                  George Patton

Offline General

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Re: Idenitfying a barrel
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2020, 06:27:48 AM »
Looking through different ones on the child board again tonight and I'm thinking possibly a Jacob Kline barrel.  The tang isn't shown but others from the same VA region has the same style, with the closely resembled script engravings and with wedges holding the barrel to the wood.
"Jacob Kline Rifle 090121-1"???
   What do you think?
  Thanks once again,
Best Wishes to all
                  George Patton

Offline homerifle

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Re: Idenitfying a barrel
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2020, 12:50:26 AM »
Here's my two cents worth of info. Some rifles out of the Shenandoah valley did have blind keepers and so did some Hampshire county Virginia rifles. The Sheetz, Glaze and Britton  smiths out of Hampshire county are known for using the blind keeper usually having a silver inlay covering the wedge key. Your tang is a little longer than what I normally see on a H. C. rifle. They generally are in the two or two an a quarter inch range but I have seen a few that are longer like yours.  The first wedge key is about eight and a half to nine inches from the breach depending on the barrel length and inlay spacing on the fore stock. The rear sight could be a contender for a H. C. rifle and the two letters do look like Jacob Kline's engraving however I've only examined full signatures by him but this doesn't mean that it is not by his hand. 

Offline General

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Re: Idenitfying a barrel
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2020, 01:43:26 AM »
  Thank you homerifle.  I measured and the 1st underlug is setting 8" in front of the breech.  I forgot to mention that there is a letter, either a M or a W on the bottom flat.  I don't know if it is in referrence the builder or someone later???  It might help???

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                  George Patton

Offline Kevin

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Re: Idenitfying a barrel
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2020, 10:07:45 PM »
Greetings General,

In "Kentucky Rifle Patchboxes & Barrel Marks" by Roy Chandler there are four "P K" rifles on pages 212 & 213.  The barrel marks are reproduced via drawings.  All for are identified as flintlocks but two of them use an * between the letters.  Maybe a match, maybe not?  Might be something to take a look at.

Another thought:  Barrels were sometimes reused back in the day and could end up as part of a restocking job that looked vastly different.  Here's a couple photos of a J. Dickert gun now on its second (or third?) stock.  This might give you some wiggle room in building a very traditional rifle without nailing down exactly who PK was.

Kevin







Offline JTR

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Re: Idenitfying a barrel
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2020, 11:16:09 PM »
Could be Jacob Kuntz.
The JK initials are very similar to those in his signed signature, and he was certainly a good enough maker to use sliding barrel attachment.
John Robbins

Offline General

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Re: Idenitfying a barrel
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2020, 01:49:29 AM »
  Kevin/JTR, thank you both for your thoughts along with everyone else.  I'm going with VA as the best possibility.  I ordered a precarved stock from Pecatonica as I'm not very good at carving yet and want to make the barrel presentable hanging on the wall.  I read more than I post so keep up the great work everyone.  Thanks again,
Best Wishes to all
                  George Patton

Offline Kevin

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Re: Idenitfying a barrel
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2020, 02:24:45 AM »
General,

You are most welcome & good luck with your project.

The Dickert marked relic I posted was, reportedly, found by its prior owner somewhere around Middletown, Virginia.  Maybe it was in Virginia when it got a second life with a barrel shortening and picked up the pointed tang.

Kevin

Offline General

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Re: Idenitfying a barrel
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2020, 02:41:20 AM »
  Kevin, thank you.  This barrel might get a second life as 2 others that I've done.  Both are in new hands now, the first sold at a youth fund raiser at church and the second, I gave to my old boss to hang over his fireplace.  Both came out good but anyone can tell (and I wouldn't try to fool anyone) that they were restocked and not originals.  I want this one to look better but it will still be a restocked rifle.  I even stamp my initials on the bottom flat to be sure.
  Thanks again everyone for all that you do on this site to help others.
Best Wishes to all
                  George Patton