Author Topic: Flint Hawken Question  (Read 10584 times)

Offline Mtn Meek

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Re: Flint Hawken Question
« Reply #50 on: February 11, 2020, 09:30:28 AM »
Wow is that some dated information, Herb!  But it is the same vintage as Baird's writings, in fact Baird has some of the same wrong dates in his book.

Daniel Hartzler (with some contribution from George Shumway) conducted some research that totally changed the date Jacob arrived in St. Louis and his relationship with Harper's Ferry.  It was published in Hartzler's book, Arms Makers of Maryland, in 1977 and summarized in Hanson's The Hawken Rifle (1979).

Jacob didn't arrive in St. Louis until 1818.  The Harper's Ferry connection with Jacob is even stronger than the whimsical speculation that Barsotti and Russell wrote about.  Jacob actually worked at Harper's Ferry from 1808 to early 1818.

The rest of Carl P. Russell's discussion of Hawken flintlocks is pure speculation, too, because none from the early years in St. Louis are known, especially half stock flintlock Hawken rifles.

Some of the info about other gunsmiths (in his footnote 4) making half stock flintlock rifles isn't far off.  I don't know about the B. D. Gill rifle(s) he speaks of but have seen pictures of such from some Philadelphia gunsmiths.

Here is one made by Jacob Kuntz.  It even has a paneled beaver tail cheekpiece like some early J&S Hawken rifles.  Kuntz was probably influenced by English sporting rifles of the time (Philadelphia gun makers adopted a lot of British traits such as the pineapple finial), but he "Americanized" it with a crescent butt plate, Pennsylvania trigger guard, and engraved brass patch box.




Speaking of HF 1803s, I saw this rifle at Jim Gordon's museum, and it blew my socks off.  Gordon has no history on the rifle, so we don't know who made it, but it really stimulates my imagination.  It was made with mostly HF 1803 parts, including the lock dated 1806, but has a full octagon barrel and a period re-stock with a beaver tail cheekpiece, even.


People have long noted and argued over whether the Southern Mountain Rifle or the Harper's Ferry 1803 or the British Sporting Rifle influenced the Hawken brothers.  I think it was all three.
Phil Meek

Offline alacran

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Re: Flint Hawken Question
« Reply #51 on: February 11, 2020, 03:04:53 PM »
Going to have to make pilgrimage to Jim Gordon's museum this year.
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Offline 45-110

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Re: Flint Hawken Question
« Reply #52 on: February 11, 2020, 04:51:04 PM »
I find the shown unique M1803 to be fascinating and at the same time a fine looking rifle. Enough so I may have to build one, the octagon barrel and beaver tail are compelling. Would like to see more pictures of this rifle. I can see where this architecture  may have influenced Jake's design.
kw

Offline blienemann

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Re: Flint Hawken Question
« Reply #53 on: February 11, 2020, 07:55:59 PM »
Don't forget the English - here are three ca 1810, two halfstock fiint, one with very heavy barrel, and a fullstock flint, all with scroll guards.  Change the buttplate, and maybe add a long tang and triggers from the southern mountain rifle, and . . .
 

Offline Daryl

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Re: Flint Hawken Question
« Reply #54 on: February 11, 2020, 09:53:39 PM »
The top one is a 6 bore. I do not know the calibres of the bottom 2 rifles.
Seems to me, though they or one was listed as a 28 bore and the other was 32 bore
although that might have been some other guns.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2020, 09:27:20 AM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Flint Hawken Question
« Reply #55 on: February 14, 2020, 05:48:02 AM »
I looked up up the three rifles in George's book.
The big Mortimer rifle is a 6 bore.
The smaller 1/2 stock John Manton is a 24 bore (.58)
And the full stock by Twigg  is a "No. 52 bore, or 45 calibre". This surprised me.

I figured I was going to confirm what Daryl posted since I had not read the book in some years and thought he was correct. In England a 45 was nothing more than a Rook rifle according to many.

Dan
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Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Flint Hawken Question
« Reply #56 on: February 14, 2020, 07:59:49 AM »
That Mortimer 6 bore had such a fast twist that only very small charges could be shot with any accuracy out of it. The John Manton in 58 was considered a deer stalking rifle.

Offline borderdogs

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Re: Flint Hawken Question
« Reply #57 on: February 14, 2020, 04:33:40 PM »
Hi Guys,
I was wondering about a finish on a Hawken rifle I have a couple that were made for me that have bone color case hardened finish on the buttplate, nose cap, lock plate, and breech. I have considered a similar finish or maybe a rust brown but lately I have been tossing around about having a bright finish that I could age. Any thoughts on a finish like that?
Rob

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Flint Hawken Question
« Reply #58 on: February 14, 2020, 04:46:47 PM »
That Mortimer 6 bore had such a fast twist that only very small charges could be shot with any accuracy out of it. The John Manton in 58 was considered a deer stalking rifle.
The late Tom Dawson has a Manton 16 bore rifle and it was engraved "1 and 1/2 Drams".
It had a fast twist but with a one ounce soft lead ball,any velocity faster than a good sling
shot would be knock down wallop.The ignition was as fast as a caplock with that little lock
and even littler pan.
Bob Roller

Offline snapper

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Re: Flint Hawken Question
« Reply #59 on: February 14, 2020, 05:10:17 PM »
There is a new book regarding hawkens that is currently being proofed.  I suspect that it will be published sometime this year.

If I am not mistaken Bob Woodfill is working with the NMLRA on this project.

Fleener
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Offline mark brier

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Re: Flint Hawken Question
« Reply #60 on: February 14, 2020, 05:12:21 PM »
Snapper,
You are correct, I had a little sneak preview of it yesterday. Bob is hoping it will be available at the spring shoot.
Mark Brier

Offline Mike_StL

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Re: Flint Hawken Question
« Reply #61 on: February 15, 2020, 02:28:12 AM »
Hi Guys,
I was wondering about a finish on a Hawken rifle I have a couple that were made for me that have bone color case hardened finish on the buttplate, nose cap, lock plate, and breech. I have considered a similar finish or maybe a rust brown but lately I have been tossing around about having a bright finish that I could age. Any thoughts on a finish like that?
Rob

That is the finish that Bob Browner uses on the Hawken rifles he builds.  This is based on known examples of that type of metal finish used.

Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Flint Hawken Question
« Reply #62 on: February 15, 2020, 02:51:07 AM »
Hi Guys,
I was wondering about a finish on a Hawken rifle I have a couple that were made for me that have bone color case hardened finish on the buttplate, nose cap, lock plate, and breech. I have considered a similar finish or maybe a rust brown but lately I have been tossing around about having a bright finish that I could age. Any thoughts on a finish like that?
Rob

IIRC, the metal finishes were; Barrel and rib blued, key escutcheons natural, the balance of the metal color cased. 
Psalms 144