Author Topic: "If your board and you need something to look at" THE SEQUEL (Read 2860 times)

Buck · « **on:** March 27, 2020, 01:22:30 AM »

I received these photos from Bill Paton and thought I'd share them with everyone.

Abraham Angstadt - this rifle was included in the Historical Society of York County Museums Expo and pictured in Merrill Lindsays "The Kentucky Rifle". Listed as Rifle number 18 in School 5 - the "Associated Bethlehem School". Enjoy!

Buck

jdm · « **Reply #1 on:** March 27, 2020, 02:16:27 AM »

WOW!!!!!!!
I've always loved that twister !!The Angstadt family never disappoints me. Great gun by Adam . Thanks Noel for sharing it. Now I'm going to have to contact Bill and see if he has pictures of my Boyer swivel for me . He is doing that book on swivels . I'm truly looking foreword to it coming out . Get busy Bill.

jdm · « **Reply #2 on:** March 27, 2020, 02:23:11 AM »

Just looked again. What's in the box underneath the worm? Does the worm still screw into the end of the ram rod? No big deal I always think it's neat when they are still with the gun.

Buck · « **Reply #3 on:** March 27, 2020, 02:43:52 AM »

Jim - thanks. The worm and the ram tip are in the box - the ramrod is original and both screw into the tip of the rod. I'll get a picture of it tomorrow. I didn't want to post very many photos - I don't want to take away from Bills book.

The rifle was attributed to Adam in the book , however Bruce Moyer, as a result of his extensive research, has determined it's Abraham - last son of Adam. His facts, timelines and rifle progressions makes sense - I'm not sure how much of that will be included in Bills book. Bruce has an Angstadt file that's about 6 inches thick, filled with the family history and where Abraham fits into it all.

Buck

jdm · « **Reply #4 on:** March 27, 2020, 03:09:45 AM »

Buck I understand about Bill's book don't feel you have to post them . He's a good man, and I hope people are lining up in the streets to buy when it comes out.

It is a good teaser for Bill's book!!!

Got my A.A.'s mixed up.

louieparker · « **Reply #5 on:** March 27, 2020, 03:23:05 AM »

Buck those photos could bring out a bit of greed in a fellow ....LP

Buck · « **Reply #6 on:** March 28, 2020, 02:00:56 AM »

Louie,

Agreed - the pictures really do the rifle justice. Bill did an excellent job.

Buck

tiswell · « **Reply #7 on:** March 28, 2020, 02:40:39 AM »

Would you guys say that the bottom barrel was straight rifled?

Thanks

mr. no gold · « **Reply #8 on:** March 28, 2020, 08:47:22 AM »

And, what a grand sequel it is. This is just about the cleanest swivel gun I have ever seen. Superb architecture and profile, fine long barrels when they often tend toward shortness to save weight, and it has good carving with inlay work. Must be a lot of people standing in line for this one, Buck. Are you taking names? Thank you for letting us have a look. All the more reason to buy Bill's forthcoming book.
Dick

louieparker · « **Reply #9 on:** March 28, 2020, 03:41:12 PM »

Buck I had to take another look.. As you may have figured out, I have more than a little interest in swivels.. This one really winds my spring. Truly a great rifle ! LP

OLUT · « **Reply #10 on:** March 28, 2020, 05:01:23 PM »

Quote from: jdm on March 27, 2020, 02:16:27 AM

WOW!!!!!!!
I've always loved that twister !!The Angstadt family never disappoints me. Great gun by Adam . Thanks Noel for sharing it. Now I'm going to have to contact Bill and see if he has pictures of my Boyer swivel for me . He is doing that book on swivels . I'm truly looking foreword to it coming out . Get busy Bill.

Like many of you, I keep on encouraging Bill Paton to publish his VOLUMINOUS data on swivel breech guns. I know that he follows these ALR postings regularly.... Hopefully this string of discussion will get him to somehow find time to fit in this labor of love with his ongoing orthopedic work . Many of us are anxiously awaiting his book. For those of you who haven't seen Bill doing his comprehensive documenting , here's a picture of the skilled surgeon giving his "thorough physical exam" to yet another gun.

Frank Graves · « **Reply #11 on:** March 28, 2020, 05:48:22 PM »

Here is another flintlock swivel, by maker Thomas Hess, of the Allemaengel region of Berks and Lehigh Counties, Pennsylvania, that Bill Paton will also be featuring in his book. These pictures are mine, not of the quality that Bill does expertly. This rifle was included in the Bruce Miller Museum some time back but it seems like a good time to add it here with these other swivels. Apparently, this Thomas Hess is an earlier and lesser known T. Hess than a later one of the same large family.

The calibers are .44 for the rifled barrel and .46 for the smoothbore barrel. The barrels length is 34-1/2" and the rifle is 50" in overall length. Only one side of the barrels is set up for a rod.

louieparker · « **Reply #12 on:** March 28, 2020, 06:20:49 PM »

Frank Thanks for posting that swivel. Its a wonderful gun. Your photos are just fine ! Exciting to see....LP

Craig Wilcox · « **Reply #13 on:** March 28, 2020, 07:06:34 PM »

Both swivel guns are beautiful! And bring out a wee bit of envy. Amazing what our ancestors were capable of without Bridgeports or other mechanized tools. Envious for sure!

Buck · « **Reply #14 on:** March 28, 2020, 08:09:35 PM »

Louie - Thank you, I would say that you had some influence in my decision to purchase this one after you shared pictures of your rifle. I tried to come close - your approval is appreciated.

Frank - As my Son would say that's spicy, that's a great swivel - thanks for sharing. If you're ever around the Princeton show bring that lady along. I know Louie, Jim and myself would love to put our fingerprints all over it. Again great rifle!

Tiswell - I would say yes - but I'll let one of the more experienced collectors provide an affirmative on that.

OLUT - I'm hoping Bill will chime in also - I communicated with him this week and he stated he was in the midst of Chapter Six of his book. He elaborated a lot more as to the content of but I'll leave that to him if he wishes to comment. Thanks for posting.

Craig - Agreed, it's amazing what they could accomplish with so little - thanks for posting.

Bill Paton · « **Reply #15 on:** March 28, 2020, 09:38:47 PM »

Yes, Buck’s and Frank’s swivels are upper end pieces, for sure. In the group of 185 double rifles I have studied and photographed so far, there are few better than those. Thank you both for posting them. Both guns will be presented in my eventual book on Kentucky double rifles. I am writing chapters and still gathering data, so it won’t be out next week.

The lower barrel of Buck’s Angstadt IS straight rifled, not uncommonly seen in both American and German swivel rifles. There are numerous thoughts as to why straight rifling was used. I think it was to allow bird shot to be used in a barrel that might shoot a patched round ball more accurately than a smooth bore. Some who regularly shoot round balls from smooth bores dispute that.

Interestingly, in addition to Buck and Frank, others on this thread have opened their homes to me for studying and photographing their double rifles, including louieparker, jdm, mr. no gold, and OLUT. I am extremely grateful to this ALR site, which has been very important in moving my research project forward.

Keep up the good work, ALR Members!

Bill Paton (pronounced “Payton” :-)

Daryl · « **Reply #16 on:** March 28, 2020, 10:45:49 PM »

I couldn't tell from the picture if the rifling was straight or had a slight twist, so take your statement that it is straight, Bill.
The upper barrel certainly has a rapid twist.

Buck · « **Reply #17 on:** March 29, 2020, 12:15:02 AM »

Bill,

Thank you for posting - great to hear from you. As mentioned before, we all look forward to the publication of your book.

Buck

Bill Paton · « **Reply #18 on:** March 29, 2020, 01:29:01 AM »

Daryl,

The twist rate in a photograph can be deceiving. At wide angle it seems slow. At telephoto, it seems fast. Those bore shots are hard for me to get (especially looking down two bores at once), and sometimes playing with multiple variables (including wide angle vs telephoto) is required. Buck’s rifle does not have a fast twist. It just looks looks like that because of the way I had to take the shot.

Bill Paton

jdm · « **Reply #19 on:** March 29, 2020, 01:52:52 AM »

Bill has been meticulous in the measurements and photographs of these rifles . I belief he was working on my D. Boyer for three hours . Some of my pictures are in the swivel section of the museum along with several others.

Frank I had forgot what a grand rifle the Hess is. Thanks for posting.

Buck · « **Reply #20 on:** March 29, 2020, 09:10:15 PM »

Jim,

Love it - notice the similarities between the 2 rifles, Bruce claims that he has the documentation that D. Boyer was an Apprentice to Abraham after he took over the shop from Adam 1st. without divulging much (because I didn't read all of the material) Abraham's existence and entrance - return into the Angstadt clan is a bit of a mystery. Bruce thought that Abraham was the product of an extra marital affair and sent him off to (Reading) Berks County. He was quit a bit younger than Joseph and Peter the 2nd, and upon his return Adam took the business over from Adam and continued running the business until he moved West (several locations) where he finally settled in Indiana. I haven't read all of this, Bruce explained this to me while pointing at the file - I began to read it last year at the KRA but didn't have the time to thoroughly read through a quarter of it. It's interesting to note that a large portion of the files were a collaboration between him and an Angstadt Family member. He and that individual produced the Angstadt article thats included in the KRA Artiles (Brown Book). That said, I would opine that he has a copious amount of info that has been acquired through the family and I wouldn't write it off as BS - I wish I had the file now. I could use a good read.

Buck

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Author Topic: "If your board and you need something to look at" THE SEQUEL (Read 2860 times)