Interesting New Rifle...Kentucky or North Carolina, or What???

[Tanselman]

I just picked up a full-stocked rifle, unsigned, that I think was made in Kentucky, but a couple details seem to be North Carolina-ish to me. So I thought I would post it for comments, and to find out what others may see in it. The gun is badly broken through the lock mortise, and the butt and forestock are not properly aligned, so I didn't show the complete gun. It has a 46-3/4" barrel with .50 caliber bore, and may have been shortened an inch or two. Before someone points out the guard is not a Lexington-style guard [which is true], Lexington area rifles NOT made by NC-influenced gunsmiths often had the more rounded guard...which usually suggested the gunsmith had VA rather than NC roots.

My first thoughts were that this rifle was made in Franklin Co., Kentucky. Those are Lexington-related rifles, but sometimes with a touch of soft curve in the comb line as opposed to pure Lexington rifles with straight comb lines. Note particularly the incised lines under the cheekpiece, where they form a narrow rectangle with "wavy" lines terminating it at either end. Also note the forestock double-line molding at the rear pipe that terminates in a wavy line...those "wavy line" terminations are strong KY characteristics...as is the very long barrel, tall butt, scooped/concave cheekpiece, two flats filed on the outside surface of the guard, butt plate with raised ridge on top extension and two filed decorative lines across the ridge, and slightly flattened top edge of comb. The big silver moon behind cheek is also a common detail on Lexington rifles...but the heart inlay in the cheek is not, nor is the "V" shaped forestock. It does have nice, wiggle engraved crescent moon inlays at each barrel pin location.

So please take a look at all the pictures, ignore the damage, splinters, and beat-up surface, and let me know what you think about where the rifle was made. By the way, despite its current rough condition, I consider this rifle an important new find and good study piece, and will fully restore it...regardless of where it was made.

P.S. This rifle was found years ago in an old farmhouse outside of New Orleans. When found, it had an old, rolled up piece of paper in the barrel that gave more information about the gun's history, but the paper was fragile and fell apart, and back then no one cared enough to copy down what was on it.

Shelby Gallien

[Hlbly]

Virginia.

[Tanselman]

Hillbilly,

Could you educate all of us a little more, by expanding your comment and telling us what specific details suggest a VA rifle, and where in VA this type of rifle might have been made? Thanks,

Shelby Gallien

[MGillman]

Virginia.

I would almost think the Southwest Virginia region based on tang and the butt styling.

[Sequatchie Rifle]

SW VA.  Lot's to like about that gun.

[EC121]

The lines under the cheekpiece are suggestive of the Bryans of Kentucky.

[Tanselman]

MGillman and Sequatchie Rifle...could you guys expand on your comments a little more, so I can understand what makes this a possible SW VA rifle?

The major details that suggest a Kentucky origin are the incised carving with wavy line terminations under the cheek and termination of forestock molding lines. When the scooped cheek, two outside flats on guard's bow, butt plate style, and flattened comb are also considered, it sways me toward central KY...but I am not well versed in SW VA rifles. Do they also share the KY-ish details I mentioned? The longer two-screw pointed tang is also frequently seen in KY.

The main reason for posting the new rifle was that it differs in some aspects from KY guns, despite having a lot of details in common, so I am trying to learn more about this type rifle, and the specific details that may point it in a different direction...and what that direction might be.

On either side of the guard's front extension, the stock wood is almost "fluted" it is hollowed out so strongly...I tried to show this in the picture of the missing front extension and its open mortise...with the concave stock wood running along either side of the open front-extension mortise. Have you guys seen that detail before. I have seen it on a couple better SC [attributed] rifles, but the detail seems uncommon. Any help you can give me in better understanding this rifle is greatly appreciated...since I know it is a little different, and may not be what I first thought it was.

One last comment on the rifle...the full-stock wood appears to be curly walnut, not maple. And that explains why the curl isn't so pronounced, but it's there.

Shelby Gallien

[mr. no gold]

Good gun, Shelby. My first impression on seeing a plain 'southern' gun with silver inlays was the old
'lipstick on a pig' saying, but as I began to really see what I was looking at, that changed. The number of subtle details on that rifle are very surprsrising. From the cheekrest with associated enhancements, to the fluting around the lock panels, to the forearm details and then there is the attractive stock profile. There is a folky aspect to the gun. but the fellow who made it was a whiz-bang builder. Wish I could help you identify the maker, but can't. Please bring it back when you have done the conservation/resoration and let
us look at it again. Thank you for posting it.
Dick

[wildcatter]

Shelby,

Thank you for posting this rifle, it has some very interesting attributes.  I would agree with you with regards to the SC trigger guard mortise comments, and that nub that appears to have been apart of the front extension is seen on some SC rifles, I would have expected that front extension to taper towards the guard, which it may, hard to tell form the photo.  The rest of the guard and rear extension don't look like SC. The small or shortened cheek rest and scooped cheek are seen in SC guns but the incised carving under it I havent seen on a SC gun but could be out there somewhere.   The "Short" for lack of a better term and angular butt, meaning distance from rear lock face to neck to nose being longer and the butt being shorter, stout and angular remind me of Southern Valley VA features and the bow of the trigger guard, but the incised lines on the forstock ending the way the do I haven't seen before on a VA gun but again could be out there somewhere.  Is the barrel tapered, meaning wider at the breech tapering down to the rear site and then parallel or non-tapered from rear site out to the muzzle? I would obvously defer to you on the KY aspects, but it is certainly an intersting gun!!

Matt

[Tanselman]

Matt, in response to your questions about the new rifle:

1. The barrel appears to be heavy at the breech and taper gently to about 8" behind the muzzle, then flare back out.
2. Trigger guard's front extension - it seems to flare out slightly as it runs out from the bow.

Shelby Gallien

I  have added a picture that shows the "fluted" area on either side of the guard's front extension more clearly than prior pictures.

[wildcatter]

Shelby,

Thank you for the additional photo, I can see exactly what you mean. The only other SC trait that may help is typically the distance from the end of the front trigger guard extension to the first barrel pin on SC guns it typically long like 13-14 inches where as on some lower Valley VA guns its more 10-11 inches.

Matt

[EC121]

In addition to the lines under the cheekpiece, Mel Hankla"s new book also shows the fluted areas and short cheekpiece on Bryan rifles.   

[Tanselman]

A couple of comments are probably needed here:

1. The comment that Bryan rifles have this type of fluting on either side of the guard's front extension is, in my experience [having owned 3 signed Bryan rifles including the early "L & W Bryan"], not accurate. Lexington rifles in general have well-set-off side facings, but not to the extent of appearing fluted along either top or bottom edges. The issue muddying this discussion is the one known rifle signed "D. Bryan" [which has been published several times]. All the original hardware [except guard, which is not in Bryan style] is from a Daniel Bryan rifle, but the gun appears to be an early restock done a few years later by one of the Renick gunsmiths of Clark Co., KY. This fact became more apparent  a few years ago when a signed John Renick rifle was identified with virtually the same later style, double spurred, guard. The restocked Bryan rifle does have heavier "fluting" along the sides of the guard's front extension, which also runs around the nose of the front extension in an arc...but that is not a Bryan rifle detail.

2. Matt, my new rifle measures 7-1/4" from end of guard's front extension to first barrel pin, which is about where 1st wedge on Lexington rifles by the Bryans sit. I don't fully understand the 13" to 14" on SC rifles, because that would put the first pin/wedge past the rear entry pipe, leaving no wedge in the forestock grip area. So did I miss something here?...which my wife says I often do! I usually look at wedge positioning in relation to the rear pipe when studying KY guns, and all the better ones have a wedge in the grip area before the rear pipe. My new rifle's 1st barrel pin sits 2-3/4" behind the center of the rear pipe...about normal for a lot of KY guns.

Shelby Gallien

[wildcatter]

Shelby,

I have a picture stating just exactly what you were surprised about. On several signed and strongly attributed SC guns this is a distinctive trait, for the first barrel pin to be past the rear entry pipe. That's why I asked

[Tanselman]

Matt,

Thanks to you, this has been an education for me on SC rifles. Just thought I would mention an auction you might be interested in. Gallery 95 in Hardeeville, SC has a gun collection going up on April 12 at 6PM. Among all the "stuff" are a number of Kentuckies. I've looked at them on their web site [there is internet bidding] and thought that several of the better rifles were probably local rifles from SC...but at that time I didn't know enough to check location of 1st barrel pin or wedge. It might be worth your while to take a look at the rifles. They are not fancy, but a couple of full-stocked guns look pretty good.

Shelby Gallien

[JTR]

Thanks, that pin placement is news to me as well!
John

[wildcatter]

Shelby,

I'm not versed on a lot of these guns but SC is my passion and then whatever I can gleen from Wallace about VA guns as we live about 5 miles apart.  I appreciate the heads up on the auction, I'll take a look.

Matt

[bama]

Shelby if you look in Whisker's Gunsmiths of Virginia on page 203 the is an unsigned rifle pictured there that has very similar carving on either side of the cheek piece. The cheek piece and the overall butt stock architecture is somewhat similar. Not saying that this is your builder but it does lend some credibility to the thought that this rifle might have been made in Virginia. It is a nice rifle either way and I am glad it found a good home. There are a couple of other rifles in this book that show similar butt shock architecture and the trigger guard profiles are very similar. Look at the George Fisher rifle on page 171 and the Amos Fisher rifle on page 170.

[Tanselman]

Jim,

I'll have to wait until I get home where my library is at...currently in Florida for 3 more weeks...as long as there is no travel ban to head north.

I wish I could see the rifle you refer to, since I am wondering if it's one of the following two:
1) rifle I attribute to early Bryan family in my book in Vol.1, p.94, large and plain, with small cheek and those "wiggles" terminating the double molding under the cheek...and a couple of folk-ish back-to-back incised "C" scrolls behind cheek.

2) Jim Dresslar's old rifle, early gun that's also in my book, Vol.1, p.88, with the fascinating "FRED. 1777" lock, single trigger, missing wood patchbox lid, which I believe was restocked early in KY in Bluegrass area...where it was found.

Other than those two rifles, I can't think of a rifle Jim pictured with the Lexington-type wiggles under the cheek. Nor can I remember ever seeing a VA rifle [one we really know is from VA] with those wiggly double-line molding terminations under the cheek or at rear pipe.

By the way, different subject...heard you were doing the restoration on the "Brown" rifle from Nelson Co., KY. If so, I am curious if you are keeping it original percussion, or got talked into making it flint.

Shelby Gallien

[bama]

Hi Shelby

The rifle in Whisker's book on page 203 is the same rifle that you have in your Vol. 1. You make some good arguments for the possible Kentucky heritage of the rifle you have posted here but I can see were the confusion of where this rifle may or may not have been made can be debated. It's always fun trying to put a name and place to these old rifles. Thank you for your efforts.

The "Brown" rifle is in my shop and I consider it an honor to be able to work on such a nice example on a Kentucky rifle. I have no problem converting a rifle back to flint if it was originally built that way but would never consider converting one to flint that was not originally flint. Being that this is not my rifle, I will not comment on it's current status or what was discussed between me and the owner. I will leave that to him if he decides to make a comment.

I will say that I will to the best of my ability restore this rifle and hope that I will do it the proper justice it deserves.

Thanks again, Jim

[Tanselman]

Jim,

Glad to hear your comments. The Brown rifle is a significant rifle, as you know, in the study of Kentucky firearms. I just don't want to see it "enhanced" beyond what it was originally, and muddy its configuration for future generations. I've seen too much of that over the years on better Eastern guns by owners who did not fully understand a given rifle, or wanted to increase its eye appeal and value, and I'd hate to see it get started with better Kentucky guns.

Shelby Gallien