Chambers York kit - similar historic guns? John Noll?

[Cossack]

I'm early in the process of ruining my Chambers York kit, and have been thinking about which historical guns it resembles so as to keep some styling cues in mind as I go. Now, before I get too far, I should say that I don't intend to make a carbon copy of any historical gun, nor do I have the developed skills to do a refined job of elaborate and super fine details. However, I want to make a fairly "believable" gun and have my eye on some examples to help keep me in line and give me ideas.

Chambers describes this kit as an "early York" gun. To me, George Schroyer is the first one who comes to mind there, and I think this rifle could do a believable Schreyer impersonation in the right hands.

However, I've been thinking the long, slim wrist reminds me somewhat of John Noll - obviously not a York builder, but one with some clear York influence. I probably want to see John Noll there, because he's a favorite builder of mine. However, I don't have a refined eye for details, so I thought I'd ask here - "do you see what I see?" or am I making this up? The buttplate seems appropriate for a nearly Noll gun, although I might want to go with a different triggerguard. The one that came with the kit might work if I put more of a bend in the grip rail. I'd want to do that for a Schroyer-esque gun, as well.

What other historical guns have a similar overall shape to this stock? For reference, I have Kindig's "Thoughts," RCA 1 & 2, Whisker's "Gunsmith's of York County," and the KRA "Kentucky Rifles and Pistols 1750-1850." Let me know if this reminds you of any other historical guns that I should check out.

Also, my kit came with a wood patchbox lid. I haven't totally ruled out going with a brass patchbox, but I'm intimidated by the idea.

[J. Talbert]

My basic advice for all beginners is to keep it simple. With a Chambers kit even if no decoration at all is added, you should still end up with a very attractive rifle because of good architecture.
Of course not all beginners are the same and some can pull off a very credible carved and even engraved first attempt, but I’ve seen an awful lot of first guns that would have looked much better had they been left plain.
If you feel you’re up to it, I’d select some simple carving from some York originals and give it a go.
Caution:  if you draw it on and you’re not totally happy with the drawing, DON’T CUT IT!
The carving is not going to look better Than the drawing.  Many people have posted their drawn on carving designs here for critique before beginning  to carve.

Good luck,
Jeff

[Cossack]

Thank you, Jeff. I will keep your advice at the forefront of my thought process.

My original plan was to do no carving at all, and that might be what I do. I do think I'll try some molding lines along the lower line of the butt, maybe the cheekpiece(Schroyer didn't seem to do this most of the time),  and possibly along the forend.

If I get ambitious, I was thinking of doing a saddle line in front of the tip of the comb that goes into some sort of finial on the sides of the wrist - possibly a simplified version of the already simple comb-wrist carving of Schroyer's  RCA 92 gun.

If I got REALLY ambitious, I was thinking of doing John Noll type C- scroll designs on the sides of the wrist, if they are appropriate to the gun.

I'm not likely to do more than that unless my practice carving on scrap wood gets really nice. I won't do anything on the gun that I can't do to satisfaction both in pencil and on scrap maple.

[flinchrocket]

If I remember right there are a couple York rifles in the wood box section in Kindigs book.

[Cossack]

If I remember right there are a couple York rifles in the wood box section in Kindigs book.

Yes - Numbers 1-3. None of them are shaped much like the Chambers kit, though. #2 seems closest to me, and just based on these three of course the Chambers kit strikes me as totally believable as an early York gun.

#2 is also very simple and sparse with its decoration, making it a good model for me to use for inspiration and guidelines.

Kindig's 1st Noll (attributed, not signed) rifle, #238, also has a wooden patchbox. It's not shaped just like my precarve either, but to me the precarve has some similar lines to some of Noll's other guns.

[J. Talbert]

Shumway rifle number 94 might not be a bad example to consider. Its carving behind the cheek piece is not my favorite, but it is reasonably appealing and fairly simple.

Jeff

[flinchrocket]

Just to make things more confusing, before 1749 York county was part of Lancaster County. So it would depend on how early of a York your talking about. Thought I would throw that out there, carry on.

[Cossack]

You guys are giving me a lot of help, pointing me to good early York guns. For some reason I didn't look as closely at RCA #94. But it's got some good ideas for me to consider.

The other thing I was wondering is out of all historical guns - from York County or not, "early" or not - which ones does this precarve stock share similar shape and features with?

[flinchrocket]

The only signed Phillip Sheetz ( Shatz ) rifle, early Virginia,has a stock similar to that. He was born in York County and apprenticed to George Unkafur. Not sure on that spelling. Photo 16
https://americansocietyofarmscollectors.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/1996-B74-Early-Rifles-of-the-Shenandoah-Valley.pdf

[Cossack]

This Schreyer rifle, which isn't in any of my books, has a similar profile. It's illustrated in Shumway's George Scheyer book, which I'd love to get my hands on someday...


This photo and many more at this auction:
https://www.auctionzip.com/auction-lot/Relief-Carved,-and-Engraved-York-County-Flintlock_4CE4D95927/

And don't worry, I'm not going to try to carve all of those fleurs-de-lis!