Reentry at the Gun Judging....

[t.caster]

I see they still give "Judges Choice" ribbons, since Mark Elliot got one for his fine rifle shown on the blog.
My question is....is this above a 1st place, or is it more like a bronze medal??
Do they give the 1st, 2nd, 3rd ribbons for overall rifle in a class? or are they for divisions in each class, like carving, engraving, patchbox, etc.

Sorry, I've been gone awhile...I hope interest in this subject hasn't dried up.

[rich pierce]

I think it means the like it, even if it has some flaws, they "get it".  Just guessing.

[smart dog]

Hi Folks,
Wow, competitive gun making.  Everything seems to become an organized contest these days.  Hey, why not include betting as well.  Introduce money and things will get serious fast.  Cynicism aside, I would never take scores from a judge in a contest as a serious critique of anything I did or made.  The reason is because they have to, by default, create a pecking order (that is their job) and that always results in arbitrary rules, measures, and rankings that often grossly distort what is important.  I am not sure it is even a very good way for an aspiring gunmaker to learn compared with informally seeking input from other good makers.  Anyway, the only competition in gunmaking that I would take seriously is the competition for customers between makers who do the work as a living.  That is simply healthy business competition.

dave

[Acer Saccharum]

Just back from the CLA, and a bit wiped out from all the driving.

I can honestly say I don't know what the 'judges Choice' ribbon is. I can speculate all day long, but I will find out eventually.

One thing that keeps coming to the forefront ia the concept of a 'contest'... of a 'competition'...

I think that is not the intent of the judging, but it sure seems like that is how it is perceived. I completely understand the misconception, because it is based on a points system. Points means score, and score means contest. That is how we are brought up, baseball, football, tennis....by score.

That said, this judging was set up as 'filter' to process a hundred guns in a day. All the guns are different, so a point system is employed to disseminate the vast array of style, skill and historical accuracy.

But the above is simply a tool, a means to an end. The main purpose of the judging is to EDUCATE. To teach, to make you go back and look at your work, to try harder to emulate original work, or to get your contemporary piece as perfect as can be (if that is of interest to you).

(Pardon me if I bore you with things I may have already said. I am too tired to go back and read my posts.)

I am trying to wrap my mind around this whole thing, and talking about it helps me tremendously. At the root of the issue I believe there to be different expectations between the artists and the judges. In my mind, if you were serious about ribbons, I would study up on what the judges are looking for in a certain class, and make your work fit the judges criteria as close as you can. While this may sound like blasphemy, I believe you will have plenty of challenges to face, and learn much along the way. You should definitely attend this seminar, with one speaker being Ron Gable, and the other Allen Martin, the former a judge, and the latter, a builder: http://dixonmuzzleloading.com/index.php?section=gunmakersfair&link=seminardetail&seminarID=25

I hope this helps.

Acer

[smart dog]

Hi Acer,
Your post is exactly correct in my opinion.  My sarcastic comment was not meant as a criticism of the judging at Dixon's or even the program of a juried competition (which it inevitably is since places and ribbons are offered).  My wife enters juried art shows frequently, so I am very familar with the genre.  I was really referring to some of the comments posted this year and in other years that suggest to me that some folks take the judging too seriously as a competition, and not enough as a learning experience.  I am reminded of the Little League dad who screams at the volunteer umpire because he called his son out.  The guy is obsessed with winning and his ego rather than seeing his son learn to play and take lumps like a man.  Moreover, folks need to evaluate that learning experience knowing that some of the comments from judges will be very important points to learn and some should be ignored because they only pertain to the need of the judges to establish a pecking order for places and prizes rather than really helping the maker learn the trade.  I guess go into it with your eyes wide open and your expectations under control.

dave

[California Kid]

I entered a gun at Dixons in the early 1990's in the master class and got a Judges choice ribbon. The critique sheet said that the nose cap wasn't traditional. I had the original gun in my possesion when I made the nose cap. Similar situation to Taylor"s with his Kunz. The gun that won best of show that year in the master class had Tedd Cash thimbles and nose cap right out of the box on it. I bet Don Getz remembers this. Go figure. I remember looking at other peoples critique sheets as well. I don't remember them being very useful to learn anything from. At the first gun level though they might be valuable.
 Acer I understand your frustration with the judges choice ribbon. Most folks I have talked to don't get it either. Please let us know when you think you have it figured out! HA HA. I never really cared one way or the other about the judging. The judging, to me is only a small part of the fair. I think more can be learned from talking to the more experienced builders at the show, and there are a lot of them there. That, shopping for goodies and seeing old friends, I think is what the fair is really about. At least for me anyway.
I'm done ranting now. Feel better! HA HA!

[Acer Saccharum]

The thing that made the light of understand burn bright for me was a statement that Mark Wheland made to me about the judging. Use the system to learn how to build a gun.

I would edit that to say to learn how to build a basic gun, take that knowledge, and build a fancier one, and then free yourself of the system.

In the posts previous, where Jim Chamber's pistol was mentioned, it is imperative to have master class examples for people to see and appreciate. This is the seed of inspiration for many, self included.

At Dixon's Fair, in the garage, between the rifle judging and the accoutrement judging areas, there is a cabinet full of original rifles, which should be on your agenda to study. You can see the different styles of each man and departures from the accepted norm with the school. Also you can see the height of the carving, the quality of the engraving, the kind of finish and stain of the guns. many of these guns would not have done well in the judging, by the way, so when you get points off, you may console yourself with the idea that you are rubbing shoulders with Antes and Oerter.

All in all, consider this as Continuing Education, or Adult Ed for gun builders. There is nothing else like it in the world. Yes, it has its flaws, but on the whole, it is as close as you can get to the old apprentice system. That, too, had its flaws.

My job, as I see it, is to learn the judging system, to listen, and to speak, keeping the lines of communication open between builder and judge.

Acer

[Osprey]

As a novice who should be learning something from the judging I have to say that all it's done is confuse me and leave me scratching my head.  I've entered guns the past two years, not knowing at all what to expect the first time, and the best thing I can say about the score sheets so far is that I try to forget them quickly.  Stuff like fit of wood to metal or gaps I understand, but I see all that myself or the guys I build with point it out to me.  But the rest of it is so inconsistent or unexplained.  Example - for the brass on my gun this year the comment was 'incorrect finish', but last year's gun, done the same way, was all checked off as fine?  Who knows what they'll want next year, so what am I supposed to learn from that - not to mention I'm not sure how else to finish brass?  And I love the "need to see originals" comment!  Definitely seems I'm not the only one to copy (or attempt to copy) something from an old gun only to be marked off as wrong, so who really needs to 'see originals'?   

Despite that, I only use the contest as an excuse/deadline to finish a project, and to have a reason for a nice weekend away during a long work summer.  That makes it something worth doing.

I

[jerrywh]

 I wouldn't  call myself an expert when it comes to original American longrifle.  Altho I have seen hundreds of them in person. I do know that a lot of them had mistakes in the construction of them just as many today do.  A person cannot asuume that a gun is correct just because some original gun had the same mistake on it.

[jmforge]

Is there a knife category in the accoutrement judging?

[Pete G.]

I personaly am glad that Jim did enter his work at Dixon's. A fair is for exhibit of work and awards are given to recognize achievement. Of course any time awards are given competion is inevitable, but that in itself generates constant progress. I look forward to the local county fair every fall, and though I have no desire to grow pumpkins, I enjoy the efforts of those that do. Jim, if you had not entered the fair, you would have deprived a lot of people the joy of being able to examine the work of a master. I often wonder what the response would be if some of the guns being built today could be transported back 200 years ago. I imagine most would be astounded.

[Acer Saccharum]

Is there a knife category in the accoutrement judging?

I have seen knives entered. But a separate class? I think you should ask Dave Rase, as he did some judging on accoutrements.

[Roger Fisher]

The thing that made the light of understand burn bright for me was a statement that Mark Wheland made to me about the judging. Use the system to learn how to build a gun.

I would edit that to say to learn how to build a basic gun, take that knowledge, and build a fancier one, and then free yourself of the system.

In the posts previous, where Jim Chamber's pistol was mentioned, it is imperative to have master class examples for people to see and appreciate. This is the seed of inspiration for many, self included.

At Dixon's Fair, in the garage, between the rifle judging and the accoutrement judging areas, there is a cabinet full of original rifles, which should be on your agenda to study. You can see the different styles of each man and departures from the accepted norm with the school. Also you can see the height of the carving, the quality of the engraving, the kind of finish and stain of the guns. many of these guns would not have done well in the judging, by the way, so when you get points off, you may console yourself with the idea that you are rubbing shoulders with Antes and Oerter.

All in all, consider this as Continuing Education, or Adult Ed for gun builders. There is nothing else like it in the world. Yes, it has its flaws, but on the whole, it is as close as you can get to the old apprentice system. That, too, had its flaws.

My job, as I see it, is to learn the judging system, to listen, and to speak, keeping the lines of communication open between builder and judge.

Acer

I 'gotta' say that is well said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!