Static Electricity and Black Powder

[moleeyes36]

In Dennis' post concerning storing black he mentions static electricity.  That seems to be a topic that gets batted around occasionally on various forums.  Back in the day, I believe I remember one on the old MLML and TOF had some good insight on the subject.  Some said that a static electricity spark wasn't hot enough to ignite black powder.  I've never done any experiments on the subject and have no idea if static electricity will ignite black powder.  Does anyone have any real, definitive information on the subject rather than just hearsay?  It would be interesting to know if static electricity really will ignite black powder or not.

Don Richards

[Bob Roller]

In Dennis' post concerning storing black he mentions static electricity.  That seems to be a topic that gets batted around occasionally on various forums.  Back in the day, I believe I remember one on the old MLML and TOF had some good insight on the subject.  Some said that a static electricity spark wasn't hot enough to ignite black powder.  I've never done any experiments on the subject and have no idea if static electricity will ignite black powder.  Does anyone have any real, definitive information on the subject rather than just hearsay?  It would be interesting to know if static electricity really will ignite black powder or not.

Don Richards

Seems to me there was quite a thread on this some years ago on the long defunct
Long Range Muzzle Loader forum from England and there was another one on a
forum for Black Powder Cartridge and the experiments said that black powder can
not be detonated by static electricity.I take neither one as the last word and won't
gamble with experiments involving static or spark plugs.
Bob Roller

[Bob McBride]

I'm probably the only guy I've ever heard of that had a static discharge but it was from BP from the mid 1800's. I had taken the remnants of powder from my collection of tins before selling and shipping them. A total of about 5 lbs. There was a lot of extenuating circumstances such as all the powder was poured into a large tupperware and carried across the yard to dispose of and I now know that tupperware was full of BP dust which is a whole other thing when it comes to static discharges. Anyway, halfway across the driveway and 'whooof'. Vanderbilt Burn Center here I come. I doubt if today's BP would react the same way, nor would it have 150 years to grind away to dust in tins....

Take it for what you want, and you'll get replies right below mine saying it can't happen. I beg to differ.

[redheart]

It can't happen Bob. I think with your luck you just happened to be struck by lightning.

[Bob McBride]

It can't happen Bob. I think with your luck you just happened to be struck by lightning.

I'd say on that clear day lightning was just as likely.. 

[EC121]

The Bevel Brothers just did an article in Muzzle Blasts about that subject.  Their conclusion is that there isn't enough current in a static spark to make enough heat to set off regular BP.  Dust is a different animal.  Here is another place ro read about it:  https://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/sparks/sparks.html  Same conclusion as the Bevel Brothers but with experiments.

[WadePatton]

Watched a guy bounce sparks of electricity off black powder many times with zero ignition back when they first invented the youtube.  It may still be up or have been repeated.  Lots of things get repeated there.  Lots of things get repeated there. Lots...

Dust from uncoated BP, heck yeah, a spark of any sort will set that off -as Bob well knows, but our graphite-coated modern stuff I don't see it happening. And most of the dust we observe these days is graphite rather than BP dust as best I understand it.

[bob in the woods]

I've seen the test which seemed to indicate that B.P. wasn't really sensitive to static electricity. That said, I might do a test myself, but not with 5 Lbs !        Anyway, I believe the conclusion of the test determined that it's amps rather than the volts that is the problem.  I'm sure that Mad Monk could give a definitive answer.

[drago]

Isn't Lightning static electricity?

[S D Bright]

Again anecdotal, but my grandfather (who's had a long rifle since the 1970s) had a friend who burned himself badly in the 1980s. The friend had simply opened a powder horn which had been shut for a long time (as in a few years, not decades). The best the doctors could figure is that static had built up on the horn over time.

Because of that, Grandma and Grandpa won't touch the powder horn hanging under the rifle in their living room.  It's been hanging there untouched for as long as I remember, and I'm 26.

[Dennis Glazener]

Isn't Lightning static electricity?

Yes but amperage is much higher than normal static electricity. Below is from national weather service:
"A typical lightning flash is about 300 million Volts and about 30,000 Amps"
Dennis

[P.W.Berkuta]

In Bob's case it's the dust that is the culprit which was ignited by a small spark  of static electricity that carried enough current (heat) to cause ignition.  Always be careful around any explosives  - 

[Mad Monk]

There were some excellent papers written on this around the turn of the century in 1900.  This was when a lot of powder plants were switching from water wheels to electric motors.  The most informative paper came out of an incident in Germany.  They found that it was nearly impossible to ignite grains of black powder with electric sparks.  But dust in the corning and screening operations was very easy to ignite with strong electrostatic sparks.  This ease of ignition involved small particles of sulfur given off by the processing of the powder in these operations. And this was before they realized they had to both ground the electric motors and move them out of the work areas onto outside building walls.  The strength of the sparks needed to ignite the grains was far above what the human body or clothing could produce.

As to static in plastic bags or plastic bottle containers.  The problem with the use of plastics was not the danger of a static spark.  Simply that the light static charges built up on the grains of powder caused them to cling to the plastic.   These plastic bags, etc, were supposed to be safely disposed  of by burning.  So you did not want a large pile of used black powder containers in a burn pile to be burnt.  You did not want to be the guy heaving the match into the pile.  Hoist with his own petard results.

[hanshi]

From various experiences - including high school science classes - I learned that dusts: sugar, coal, flour, etc, can be set off very easily and explode.  I never worry about the powder and static electricity but I'm careful around the dust.

[EC121]

We had two 65ft. starch silos a the papermill where I worked.  I used to hate being around them.  Air blowers moved the starch in to the building to the cookers and all the pipe joints leaked the stuff.

[Daryl]

Dust in the air, whether starch, flour or wood dust, is highly explosive. We've had 2 lumber mills explode & burn as well as the old flour mill back home in Dorchester Ont.
exploded and burned. Dust is bad, however, the static experiment also used ground up BP, to "Dust" & the flood of sparks just made the dust particles "blast" to outside the pile.
Very interesting indeed , which brings up the question -
 are there forms of static electricity, natural due to packaging, etc, which produce the amperage necessary to combust black powder?(other than lightening)

[bob in the woods]

I still remember a demonstration by the fire dept at one of our Boy Scout meetings [  some 55 years ago ! ]     They brought in a metal garbage can , fixed up with a spark apparatus inside. Sifted in a bit of flour, put on the lid and BANG !   Blew the lid off.   It was an eye opener.

[snapper]

Take a cardboard tube, put it vertical with a lit candle at the bottom.   Take some of your favorite dust and whoosh into the tube.   You will get the rapid burn associated with a dust "explosion".   It is really not an explosion, but a rapid burn across the small particles suspended in the air.   It appears to us as an explosion.

Fleener

[Bob Roller]

About 60 years ago I was in the doctor's office for whatever and the doc suddenly dashed out of the
office and drove off like a wild man.I called him the next day and he said a lady had emptied a vacuum cleaner bag into
an open fire and it blew up and she was in intensive care.It was our next door neighbor and it took her a long time
to recover.It dfoes NOT take gun powder to go boom.
Bob Roller

[Mad Monk]

Dust in the air, whether starch, flour or wood dust, is highly explosive. We've had 2 lumber mills explode & burn as well as the old flour mill back home in Dorchester Ont.
exploded and burned. Dust is bad, however, the static experiment also used ground up BP, to "Dust" & the flood of sparks just made the dust particles "blast" to outside the pile.
Very interesting indeed , which brings up the question -
 are there forms of static electricity, natural due to packaging, etc, which produce the amperage necessary to combust black powder?(other than lightening)

Daryl,

Somewhere along the way I lost the report out of Germany on the sifting packing house explosion.  Dated back to around 1910.  They first tried to ignite grains of black powder with one of those big spinning wheel electrostatic generators.  Those form charge strengths far above what man and his clothing produces.  In the end they were able to ignite grains of black powder with a spark generated by a coil using 8 amps and 18 volts feed into the spark producing coil.  This was their clue that any small static spark explosion had to relate to the dust in the building.  The report stated that all electric motors must be grounded and with explosion proof wiring and switches  They must properly ventilate the works areas to reduce dust levels.  They described the accumulation of static charges in the air in the room with the machinery running.  This report was used to show why any electric motors should be mounted and wired outside the buildings driving machinery by shafts running from the motors through the walls and then onto the actual machinery.  Even as far as desigining packing glands for the shafts where they went through the walls.  That way there would be no dust laden stream of out of the shaft openings in the wall that might then be ignited by the motor mounted outside the wall.  The lessons learned from this German experiment were then used when other machinery such as wheel mills were "electrified".   

[Daryl]

Many thanks Bill. Much appreciated.

Bob- thanks for that heads-up as well.