Videos - Firing India Bess with American Pioneer 3F

[arcticap]

There's a fellow on youtube who loaded American Pioneer Powder 3F into the bore of his India made flintlock and using Goex 4F in the pan, he fired 15 shots without a misfire.
After I posted about this on another forum, someone replied that he tried it and it worked in his flintlock too.
It may also depend on the efficiency of the vent and other factors so it may not work for every gun.



The caption for the video states: "Trying out some new powder, touted as a clean burning black powder substitute. I've read a huge difference of opinion about this powder, and several people flatly state that it will NOT work in a flintlock.
Well, here you have it. I fired 10 shots of varying powder charge, all lead ball, and not one misfire or failure to discharge. I think the FFFg is the right choice, the grain size is bigger than regular black powder, so having the FFFg probably helped with ignition here. Also, prime the pan with NORMAL black powder, it's not a big deal and doesn't make a big mess.
Clean up was a breeze and nearly zero fouling. Very happy."

The next 9 second video was posted by the same fellow 2 days later.



The caption states: "This is I think the 8th shot out of the musket without swabbing, cleaning or lube of any kind.
After 15 shots the barrel still looked 'brand new', this powder seems consistent and reliable, not a single misfire that day.
....also at 20 paces we hit the crock-pot every time.. .71 lead ball with paper cartridge wadding."

---------------

APP is now back in business and producing powder again after their 2016 plant explosion.
The powder with the original APP label is available for purchase from the following outfits: bulletsbyscarett.com, lg-outdoors.com and at wholesalehunter.com.
It's also being sold under the Shooters World label @ grafs.com as Shooters World Multi-Purpose Black FFF Sulpherless Powder.
(This Black Powder substitute is made in America for Shooters World by American Pioneer Powder).

[MuskratMike]

Not sure about anything I see from someone who shoots large bore at metal cans sitting on a large rock! Anyone know anything about this powder?

[Daryl]

I've never heard of it Mike. I noticed he also had nothing on the .710" ball to keep it on the powder in the
750" bore and was pointing the muzzle down at an angle. Of course we also do not know how big he drilled the vent as those guns come undrilled, and unproofed as a result although they bear British proof Mark's. Such are those guns.

[MuskratMike]

Looks like some product for those "inline" shooters who just haven't seen the light yet. Their home page shows a big picture of Mr. Shockey from 25 years ago. If it ain't sulphur, charcoal and saltpeter (with maybe a little graphite) it ain't going down the barrel of any of the "Muskrat's" smoke poles!

[arcticap]

Anyone know anything about this powder?

It's a sugar/ascorbic acid based powder that contains potassium perchlorate like all of the other sub. powders.
Compression can help its performance, and it should be kept sealed from moisture as much as possible.
Maybe because the 2F is very chunky, the 3F appears to be the only granulation that works in flintlocks.
A previous thread about it. --->>>  https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=53593.msg536015#msg536015

[Daryl]

I remember that thread now.

[bob in the woods]

Having seen for myself the inner workings of the "India " musket's breaching design, I would be especially wary of using a powder which contained any perchlorate whatsoever.  I hope that fellow cleans his musket with extra care !

[hanshi]

I'm with the Muskrat on powder.

[arcticap]

Having seen for myself the inner workings of the "India " musket's breaching design, I would be especially wary of using a powder which contained any perchlorate whatsoever.  I hope that fellow cleans his musket with extra care !

From what I've read, what causes the rust problem with perchlorate is moisture.

IMO one of the reasons why APP doesn't foul as much as most black powders, is due to the fact that APP weighs considerably less compared to an equal volume of black powder.
For instance, APP 3F weighs 22% less than Goex 3F.
It's lesser weight and unique fouling characteristics due to its formula, leads to less carbon and creosote residues which can contribute to fouling a bore faster.
That's why most folks acknowledge that APP is a cleaner burning powder.

Every powder has its advantages and disadvantages.
But the fact that it can be reliably fired in some flintlocks is just another advantage that it has.
The purpose of posting the videos was to dispel the myth that it doesn't work in flintlocks at all, or isn't reliable.
If some folks can continue shooting their flintlock despite running low on black powder then that's a positive.
That it produces less residue which is also very soft, also helps to make it easier to clean.

[Jeff Murray]

Having spent some time with a chronograph on a 58 caliber rifle, an interesting question would be what velocity and breech pressure 3FF American Powder generates in a Brown Bess compared to GOEX 2ff.  The breech pressures/velocities generated by GOEX 3f exceed those generated by GOEX 2ff and in a "Bess" there is a pretty heavy push to get that big ball going down the barrel.  As noted earlier, made in India, large caliber, and apparently no proofing of the barrel would seem to make strapping it to a tire and proof testing the breech a great idea.  The fact that the grain size is larger than GOEX3f does not account for the different chemical composition.  Potassium Perchlorate  generally burns hotter than Potassium Nitrate based on decades old experiments done in high school rocket club.  It will also blow the door off your buddy's mom's kitchen oven.  I'd be more concerned about the gun than the fact that the powder "will ignite".

[arcticap]

Having spent some time with a chronograph on a 58 caliber rifle, an interesting question would be what velocity and breech pressure 3FF American Powder generates in a Brown Bess compared to GOEX 2ff.  The breech pressures/velocities generated by GOEX 3f exceed those generated by GOEX 2ff and in a "Bess" there is a pretty heavy push to get that big ball going down the barrel.  As noted earlier, made in India, large caliber, and apparently no proofing of the barrel would seem to make strapping it to a tire and proof testing the breech a great idea.  The fact that the grain size is larger than GOEX3f does not account for the different chemical composition.  Potassium Perchlorate  generally burns hotter than Potassium Nitrate based on decades old experiments done in high school rocket club.  It will also blow the door off your buddy's mom's kitchen oven.  I'd be more concerned about the gun than the fact that the powder "will ignite".

Is it possible that you're confusing 777 powder with American Pioneer powder?
American Pioneer Powder is not the same as 777 powder which Hodgdon advises to reduce all loads of it by 15% compared to other black powder equivalents.
American Pioneer Powder has no such advisory, and there's no evidence that it creates higher pressures worthy of any concern if at all.

India made muskets sold by Loyalist Arms have passed proof testing in England, Italy and Germany.
If the Bess was sold by a reputable North American dealer, then his gun barrel and powder shouldn't be an issue at all.
It's a normal load of a volume equivalent powder in a barrel that's modern made and many times stronger than any original.
Even Sam Fadala recommended using 3F powder for every gun and caliber, and he loaded extensively with Pyrodex P in his book.

[Daryl]

Yeah -  well, "Old" Sam was "Old" Sam.
Just for curiosity, how can a gun be proofed if it doesn't have a vent when sold?  The proof stamps on the barrels are
 copies of the original stamps on Bess', is all.  As it is sold by the Indians who made it, as a non-gun(the only way they
 can ship it), it does not have to meet their proof laws.(if there are proof laws in India) Anyway, not proofed that I am aware of.
I am curious, though and would likely have to see a picture of barrels with their new proof marks from England, Italy and Germany.
The one I had, had only 3 threads having .002", to .0225" engagement in the breech's thread.

[Marcruger]

arcticap,

I don't think you'll find many on here that agree with using faux blackpowder.  Nothing wrong with real black, so why substitute?

Do you work for the company that makes American Pioneer?   

Best wishes,  Marc

[Mad Monk]

American Pioneer Powder is another ascorbic acid based powder.  Came out after Black Canyon ceased.  Still the same guy running these different companies.

The mixture of ascorbic acid, 40%, and potassium nitrate, 70%, is cool burning and produces little heat.  It is basically a gas generating composition.  Products of combustion are potassium carbonate as a fine white powder scattered in the bore.  Then the gas produced is carbon dioxide and some water. 

The idea of the ascorbic acid use goes way back to the early 1980s.  We first saw it as Golden Powder which did not last long on the market.  The use of ascorbic acid is novel but raised questions at the time of the golden powder.  They would mix solutions of potassium nitrate and ascorbic acid and bake the mix in a glass dish in an over.  The ascorbic acid would begin to break down and give off water.  The heating was simply breaking down the ascorbic acid into a form of caramelized sugar.  Plants produce ascorbic acid by adding hydrogen and oxygen to the basic sugar molecule.  When you heat the ascorbic acid you simply break it down into sugar.  At the time a good grade of ascorbic acid sold for abut $9 per pound while sugar could be had for about 50 cents a pound.  Then the powder made by heating and breaking down the ascorbic acid made it extremely hygroscopic.  And very poor chemical stability.  If you shot those powders in a small caliber percussion you had to pull he nipple and drain a bunch of water out of the breech every 3 or 4 shots.    I shot different versions of the ascorbic acid powder in my .50 caliber rifles.  As you increase the charges above 100 grains volume the velocities actually begin to drop.

Bill K.

[Mad Monk]

Forgot to mention we had one known as Black Mag.  This was yest another ascorbic acid powder.  When the first Golden Powder company folded a number of investors walked away with the ability to produce ascorbic acid based powders under the original patent.  The Black Mag had a bunch of potassium perchlorate in it to boost the strength and burn rate.  Produced in a garage that blew up and killed the guys making it.  And they had not been licensed to produce it.

Bill K.

[Daryl]

I have a couple pounds of Black Mag 3, seems to me, in the powder locker, if someone wants to try it out. It's been there for close to 30years.
I had forgotten about it until Bill just mentioned it.

[bob in the woods]

Yeah -  well, "Old" Sam was "Old" Sam.
Just for curiosity, how can a gun be proofed if it doesn't have a vent when sold?  The proof stamps on the barrels are
 copies of the original stamps on Bess', is all.  As it is sold by the Indians who made it, as a non-gun(the only way they
 can ship it), it does not have to meet their proof laws.(if there are proof laws in India) Anyway, not proofed that I am aware of.
I am curious, though and would likely have to see a picture of barrels with their new proof marks from England, Italy and Germany.
The one I had, had only 3 threads having .002", to .0225" engagement in the breech's thread.

Yes indeed.  Somehow the topic of concern re the India muskets always seems to be the barrels,
however like Daryl indicated, the breach method was what convinced me to get rid of mine .

[arcticap]

Yeah -  well, "Old" Sam was "Old" Sam.
Just for curiosity, how can a gun be proofed if it doesn't have a vent when sold?  The proof stamps on the barrels are
 copies of the original stamps on Bess', is all.  As it is sold by the Indians who made it, as a non-gun(the only way they
 can ship it), it does not have to meet their proof laws.(if there are proof laws in India) Anyway, not proofed that I am aware of.
I am curious, though and would likely have to see a picture of barrels with their new proof marks from England, Italy and Germany.
The one I had, had only 3 threads having .002", to .0225" engagement in the breech's thread.

Yes indeed.  Somehow the topic of concern re the India muskets always seems to be the barrels,
however like Daryl indicated, the breach method was what convinced me to get rid of mine .

India made guns are shipped all over the world to CIP countries that requires a live firing gun to be proofed and proofmarked.
It only took a quick search to find an English dealer of India made guns,
They order them and they are received unfinished, after which the dealer disassembles the guns, then reworks and rebuilds them.
The dealer quite clearly describes that every live gun that they sell is proof tested at the British Birmingham proofhouse.
Why would anyone find that so hard believe that they need a photo?
Just read this page. --->>>  https://www.derbyshirearms.com/our-selection

On the Military Heritage home page, it states that they ship to the UK and Europe each week, no license required. I would imagine that the gun doesn't need to be proofed until after it's completed and made into a live firing weapon. --->>>  http://www.militaryheritage.com/muskets.htm

As for the gun in your photo, was it purchased from a North American dealer/importer?
Not all India made guns are made by the same reputable India manufacturers.
There's all kinds of copycat guns that people can bring into the US that are of questionable origin and construction.
How do we know that one wasn't made in a back alley in Peshawar, Pakistan?

[bob in the woods]

The Bess I had , came from Military Heritage.  This thread was mainly concerning the American Pioneer powder, so I certainly don't want to diverge into an Indian gun discussion. Let's just say that any breach which isn't tight the shoulder of the plug would be an extra special concern if corrosive powders are used, since the residual fouling would be in contact with the threads. 

[arcticap]

arcticap,

I don't think you'll find many on here that agree with using faux blackpowder.  Nothing wrong with real black, so why substitute?

Do you work for the company that makes American Pioneer?   

Best wishes,  Marc

Hi Marc,
No, I don't work for APP.
As I mentioned in Reply #8, the purpose of posting the videos was to dispel the myth that it doesn't work in flintlocks at all, or isn't reliable.
Plus there was the previous thread about APP that showed a lack of accurate information about it. --->>> https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=53593.msg536015#msg536015

My post count may not show it since I just re-registered with the new ALR forum.
I was a member of the old ALR forum for a number of years before the switch to the new forum.
Sometimes I visit ALR while doing searches, but not as much as I used to.

That being said, I can't imagine that folks would object to knowing the truth about the usefulness of 3F APP to at least some flintlock shooters.
Then when someone asks about it, there will be others knowledgeable enough about it to tell them.

[Mad Monk]

Allow me to dig into this a bit with my background in those powders.  The guy who owns and operates APP goes back to the original small group of investors who back the original inventor of the Golden Powder back in the mid-1980s.  He walked away from the break up of that group with the right to exploit the patent covering the powder.  There were others in that group that then tried to modify the powder and still exploit the patent.

This APP grew out of the experience and failure of the Black Canyon Powder.  When Black Canyon started to produce it in pellet form Hodgdon went after the company in court.  The court ruled in Hodgdon's favor and that put Black Canyon out of business.  But Black Canyon suffered the same problem that all of the previous versions showed.  It was extremely hygroscopic.  It wasn't unusual to see a 1 or 2 year old container of it with the grains fused together solid as a rock and smelling not rotten vegetables.  This guy then came out with this APP.  I got into the APP pretty deep when GOEX started to buy it to replace their fruit sugar based Clear Shot powder after their new Clear Shot blow burned and blew up at Minden.  The guy from APP convinced GOEX that he had solved the problem with the hygroscopic troubles.  GOEX asked me to have a look at it.  So they shipped me some with a new black powder they started making around that time.  I set up my moisture pick up tests and found that this then new APP was relatively non-hygroscopic.  A big step forward for the ascorbic acid based powder concept.  Then I looked at it in my two flintlock rifles.  In the one rifle it was fairly reliable when used as a main charge and a lock prime but not in the other rifle.  Difference in vent design.  Velocities were not up there with the black powders I had tested and bumping the charge volume up beyond a certain point did not increase velocities.  These ascorbic acid based powders leave a dusting of potassium carbonate in the bore of the gun.  I moderately humid weather the bore quickly becomes wet.  The very fine particle size potash dust in the bore picks up moisture very fast.  I found that the ALL did not leave a lot of excess water produced during powder combustion as the earlier version of the ascorbic acid powders were know to do.  So I wrote it all up and sent it off to the then president of GOEX who could then sit back comfortably in selling it under GOEX's name.  I seem to recall that GOEX sold it under the Clean Shot name.  Then Hodgdon bought out GOEX and that was the end of that powder since they produce Pyrodex and 777.

While a lot of us older shooters don't like the BP subs they occupy a niche in the market.  In some states it is nearly impossible to buy black powder in a gun shop.  And some don't want to order cases or large amounts of black powder.  A lot of commercial apartment complexes will not all black powder to be stored on their property.  This APP is about the only BP sub I know of that will work in a flinter.  This thing about working in flinters has to do with ignition temperatures.  Some of the subs have fairly high ignition temperatures which is why you see all of the different strength percussion caps.

Bill K