what would have happened?

[chuck-ia]

at the range shooting today, a guy was shooting a TC Hawken, 50 cal. was having a hard time getting the ball down the barrel, (I noticed) I seen him go to the firing line, looked at me and said I'm just gonna shoot it out, I told him if the ball is not down he could burst or rupture the barrel, I used my steel range rod to seat the ball, it was very tight, the ball was about 8" from the muzzle, I am guessing if he shot the ball out he would have serious barrel problems, what do you guys think? chuck

[smokinbuck]

Chuck,
I would have to guess that you saved him from at least a ringed barrel and at worst a ruptured barrel, probably at the point that the ball was stuck.
Mark 

[Dphariss]

at the range shooting today, a guy was shooting a TC Hawken, 50 cal. was having a hard time getting the ball down the barrel, (I noticed) I seen him go to the firing line, looked at me and said I'm just gonna shoot it out, I told him if the ball is not down he could burst or rupture the barrel, I used my steel range rod to seat the ball, it was very tight, the ball was about 8" from the muzzle, I am guessing if he shot the ball out he would have serious barrel problems, what do you guys think? chuck

Probably a bulge.
But this can get very messy too.
Good chance his bore is badly pitted if a percussion.
Dan

[Candle Snuffer]

I would agree with all that has been said.  I also wonder if anyone ever reads the booklet that comes with a muzzle loading rifle?  'Course, he may have picked it up second hand from somewhere's with no booklet?

[SCLoyalist]

at the range shooting today, a guy was shooting a TC Hawken, 50 cal. was having a hard time getting the ball down the barrel, (I noticed) I seen him go to the firing line, looked at me and said I'm just gonna shoot it out, ......... what do you guys think? chuck

I think you did the right thing, and that maybe you need to keep a real close eye on this guy in the future so nobody gets hurt.  He perhaps could use a mentor or a nannie.

[Harnic]

I hate to admit it, but I'm sure if the rest of you were honest, it's happened to you too.  On more than a few occasions I've fired a rifle with the ball only short-started.  The result of too many distractions.  I've never burst or ringed a barrel.

[chuck-ia]

this guy knew the ball was only short started. chuck

[Roger Fisher]

Well you did him a favor and saved him from a possible ringed barrel.  That TC was surely a heavy barrel which was in his favor.  I hope you impressed him with the fact that in the futre he must be certain to have the ball down upon the powder.

A smaller ball and patch combo and/or 4/0 wool scrubbing may relieve his problem also.  

We had one written up in MBlasts a couple or three yrs ago in which the 'rifleman' had a dumb habit of shortstarting the ball repeatedly.  Barrel split at the upper tennon location for abt 4 inches article had photos ruined a fine barrel swamped I do believe.  I may still have the photos....somewhere.

[Daryl]

Right thing to do, Chuck - both Taylor and I ringed our first rifles, both TC's due to short starting and firing them. I've seen at least a dozen more over the years & even had a barrel ring at a rear tennon that was dovetailed too deeply by the maker, which was neither of us.  My wife's Seneca ringed at the sight screw hole TC put in as the bottom of the screw hole was only 1/16" from the bore in the 13/16" barrel.  That one had never been sort started and never fired without the ball on the powder.  This was back in the late 70's. Took me until last year to get around to re-barreling it, and here it is. Daughter Carol getting her feet wet in BP.

[doug]

       I think it depends on the barrel length; on short barrels under say 36", I am almost positive it would ring the barrel and probably bulge or burst it depending on the steel.  I have seen several guns like that.  I think on a 42" barrel and a relatively light charge, a short started ball will quiet often pop out without damaging the barrel.  I think that has happened to me although no proof; just a funny light sound when I shot the gun.  I think with a light charge and a long barrel, the peak pressure has dropped enough that the wave of compressing gasses will push the ball out or at least get it moving.
     Bottom line is that I would never knowingly try to shoot a short started ball out.

cheers Doug

[chuck-ia]

It does make me wonder about some of the horror stories I have heard about a barrel bursting, most of these people seem to blame the gun, and then talk about how unsafe these guns are, I would guess even if they knew they short started I don't think they would fess up. Was at Wallmart about 6 months ago to buy some ticking, and the lady helping me told me all about how a barrel blew up on her son, and he hasn't shot one of those dangerous guns since, (20 years). I kept my mouth shut, I doubt it was the guns fault. chuck

[Randy Hedden]

Twice I have seen guys load a bare ball over the powder in smothbores and as they went to shoot the ball rolled back up the barrel and caused a bulge or ring near the muzzle.  You would think that a bare ball that could roll back up the barrel wouldn't cause a ringed barrel, but they do sometimes.

Randy Hedden

 

[doug]

Twice I have seen guys load a bare ball over the powder in smothbores and as they went to shoot the ball rolled back up the barrel and caused a bulge or ring near the muzzle.  

     Definitely happened on our range a few years ago; was in a stake cut competition and one of the shooters thought to shoot faster. they would not patch the ball.  Trouble was the gun was angled down to hit the stake and left a noticeable bulge mid barrel.  The gun was a trade gun and relatively thin barreled compared to a rifle.

cheers Doug

[Roger Fisher]

Twice I have seen guys load a bare ball over the powder in smothbores and as they went to shoot the ball rolled back up the barrel and caused a bulge or ring near the muzzle.  

     Definitely happened on our range a few years ago; was in a stake cut competition and one of the shooters thought to shoot faster. they would not patch the ball.  Trouble was the gun was angled down to hit the stake and left a noticeable bulge mid barrel.  The gun was a trade gun and relatively thin barreled compared to a rifle.

cheers Doug

I dislike those darn stake shoots with a passion.  Too much can happen when a speed shoot similar to that is done.  Helter skelter is a poor part of a shooting match.  I do not become a part of any stake shoots and consider it increasing the odds of an accident.  Your example is only one possiblity.

[Burgess_rudy]

I have a video of me with the same problem shooting the ball out. It was one of my first live fires of my Brown Bess. The ball would not go down the barrel because of built up fouling and it stuck about half-way down.

I didn't have a ball puller and the guy next to me was shooting an in-line muzzle loader and didn't know what a ball puller was. The solution was this. Use the metal ram rod with the barrel type cleaning jag attached. My friend had  a big hammer (heavy) and helped pound the ball down. We measured that we were very close to the charge. Then pounded until we felt no more movement. I was satisfied we were at the charge. Everybody mysteriously walked away from me when  I put the string on the trigger. I pulled the string and the firelock went off with a lot of recoil due to the tightly packed powder ball combo. In the end, all it cost me was a new steel ram rod. I now always carry a big hammer with me.

[JCKelly]

Ezekiel Baker noted that leaving the ball/shot off the powder blew up a lot of fowlers & some rifles. The air gap has been ruining barrels and the occasional hand for centuries. Benjamin Robbins wrote on it bursting Brown Bess muskets, my hazy recollection is about 1760 in Procedings of the Royal Society

I am a real wimp where potential loss of body parts is concerned. If I had a ringed barrel I'd saw out that section. The metal has been stretched some at the ring, and most barrels these days are made of metal that won't take a lot of stretching. If there wasn't enough barrel left to use, I would purchase meself a new one from James McLemore, or perhaps Green Mountain.

[Daryl]

Taylor has a barrel in the rafters that was shot with the patched ball a couple inches (we think) off the charge. It split into three pieces from the breech up to about 1/2 way- like a banana.  I don't know what the barrel material was, but the fellow didn't shoot heavy charges.  That one didn't ring, but rather erupted.

[Dphariss]

It does make me wonder about some of the horror stories I have heard about a barrel bursting, most of these people seem to blame the gun, and then talk about how unsafe these guns are, I would guess even if they knew they short started I don't think they would fess up. Was at Wallmart about 6 months ago to buy some ticking, and the lady helping me told me all about how a barrel blew up on her son, and he hasn't shot one of those dangerous guns since, (20 years). I kept my mouth shut, I doubt it was the guns fault. chuck

There have been blowups that could not be explained by loading errors, smokeless powder etc.  But the subject gets me into trouble.
Nor is is limited to MLs. Stainless steel modern stuff has a tendency to come "unstuck" and at least one maker recommends that their stainless barrels not be reprofiled or shot at temps under 0° F.
The stuff is brittle.

Dan

[northmn]

They don't always bulge but do often enough.  A friend of mine shot a short started ball and noticed a bulge ahead of the nose cap on his TC.  He cross sectioned it and it looked like someone took a torch to the inside and cut a thin ring on the inside.  I shot a short started ball by accident and had no problem.  One reason I do not like people talking to me while shooting.  The natives running buffalo were famous for using no patch by loading a bare ball and thumping the butt on the saddle.  They also were noted for blowing barrels.  Even the heavy plains rifle barrels were recorded as busrting, whcih would have to be something like a unseated ball.  As to stake shoots and other speed shoots, I agree with Roger, they are an accident waiting to happen.  Ad to the stainless steel barrel not to be used below 0 degrees.  I hope folks from Minnesota or Canada don't buy them.

DP

[Pete G.]

Use the metal ram rod with the barrel type cleaning jag attached. My friend had  a big hammer (heavy) and helped pound the ball down. We measured that we were very close to the charge. Then pounded until we felt no more movement. I was satisfied we were at the charge. Everybody mysteriously walked away from me when  I put the string on the trigger. I pulled the string and the firelock went off with a lot of recoil due to the tightly packed powder ball combo. In the end, all it cost me was a new steel ram rod. I now always carry a big hammer with me.

Be aware that BP can detonate by percussion. If you doubt it, shoot a can about half full sometimes. Makes an expensive BOOM that is great fun, but it might cause you to rethink the hammering technique somewhat.

[Daryl]

Pete - I'm not so sure that powder is going off by percussion, but perhaps due to heat generated.

[Pete G.]

I'm still a bit leery of pounding on a loaded rifle. I remember the old westerns where they would pack bags of powder under the trestle and then shoot it to detonate the powder. I always sort of thought that was BS until I actually tried it (shooting the powder, not blowing up the trestle).
I also remember reading of a mishap where a benchrest guy had a round with the bullet jammed into the throat. He removed the bolt and was using a mallet and cleaning rod down the bore to dislodge. Seemingly no cause for alarm. Somewhere in the process the round discharged. The case then became the projectile and killed his wife who was sitting behind the line. A bizarre occurrence for certain, but it doesn't matter if the odds are one in a million if you are the one. Things can happen.

I have caught myself doing something stupid at times, as anyone who deals with this stuff long enough will do, so I try to avoid things that might, shall we say, lead to unexpected results, as they are always rather startling and can sometimes be deadly.

[stoat]

When I first started shooting, a couple of times, I fired a round that had been pushed down a few inches by the starter
but forgot to push it down with  the ram rod so the ball was 3 pr 4 inches from the muzzle.
This was a 1" by 28" .40.

I talked to a more experienced guy and he'd done the same in his early years of shooting. He had done this several times with his 13/16" .40.

These short starts didn't have a bad effect on either barrel.

Maybe the ball has to be closer to the powder to do real damage ??

Don't know if it makes a difference but both barrels were GM.

[Daryl]

I also remember reading of a mishap where a benchrest guy had a round with the bullet jammed into the throat. He removed the bolt and was using a mallet and cleaning rod down the bore to dislodge. Seemingly no cause for alarm. Somewhere in the process the round discharged. The case then became the projectile and killed his wife who was sitting behind the line. A bizarre occurrence for certain, but it doesn't matter if the odds are one in a million if you are the one. Things can happen.

The bullet being pounded back into the base, compressed the powder charge which compressed powder throught he flash hole which compressed the pellet of priming which ignited which fired the charge, blowing the ctg. case out the back of the action with terminal results on the person standing behind the rifle - presumably.

When we cannot get a ball down - (doesn't happen any more due to proper patches and lubricant being used) we pull the ball out the muzzle with a ball screw or unbreach the rifle, dump the powder and drive it out.    Like I said, once a guy has some experience, this sort of thing doesn't happen, if he uses a good tight patch and a good and proper quantity of lubricant.   The 75th goes down as easily as the first due to no fouling buildup.