Planning a new build, question on lock?

[Bigmon]

I am planning to build a transitional style rifle as similar to the Edward Marshall as I can reasonably do.  I just received my new Muzzleloader Magazine and was happy to see a fine article and photos of the rifle in question.
I already have an Ed Rayle 58 cal barrel and I plan on using cherry for the stock that is from my own tree.
But I notice in the magazine photos, and also on an original similar rifle in the museum at Ft Ligonier, that the lock looks more like a large Siler, or the Albrecht lock that Larry Zorn makes.
My question is why do all the kit lakers use the larger banana plated lock?  I look at TOW and Jim Chambers kits, they use these locks.
Am I missing something?  Is the lock in the original MArshall a replacement?
Or is this all just over thinking the project?
Thanks for any explanation!
Regards to all, keep safe.  My wife and I are both getting over the Covid.  Thanks to GOD.

[Daryl]

Considering the Marshal gun shows changing from German influence to American, wouldn't either lock work?
Glad you are both feeling better.

[Bigmon]

Sure, I suppose either lock would work.  But I guess I wasn't clear enough with my question.  I am curious why everyone seems to use the big banana shaped lock when the actual Marshall rifle lock looks more like the large Siler?
Just seems odd to me?

[smylee grouch]

That banana shape can help position the tail of the lock closer to the wrists mid point which might be what you want with that style of gun. 5

[rich pierce]

If I was using cherry I’d already be flexible on re-creating the Marshall rifle. The “Albrecht” lock is close to the original lock on the Marshall rifle in appearance but i don’t know about it’s function or reputation.

Kit suppliers look for parts that they make or they can reliably source and that have a good reputation among builders and shooters. Because at one time the “Siler” was about the best lock out there that was available and reasonably priced and had such a reputation, for years it was used on kits where it did not even fit stylistically.

Chambers makes a lock that they supply with their kit and it’s from the right period give or take being a little early (which is always fine) so not surprising they use it. Others follow suit.

[flinchrocket]

If I were making the Marshall rifle I would use the Chambers gunmakers lock and shape the plate to the original.

[hanshi]

Just to my eyes, the Chambers early Germanic "banana" plate lock is the best looking.  Certainly not required but simply a nice lock.

[FALout]

Just throwing this out there, but maybe it’s a timeframe thing with the banana shaped lock plate being just slightly earlier?  I’ve noticed the same thing, I’m interested in building a late jaeger with longer large bore ( 58-60calx42”) but for some reason I’m leaning away from the banana lock.  Does this make them a early transitional rifle?
Bob

[Bigmon]

I can understand how the banana lock plate can look great with this style, especially if it has the step wrist.
But the original Marshall rifle does not have that kind of lock plate.
So my question is why do all the copies use the banana lock when the original is more like the Siler?
IS there an original rifle somewhere of the same type transitional that used the banana plate?

I have a Chambers round faced Germanic lock I could use but sort of want a flat plate lock.

[Daryl]

This one is flat - a Davis lock, I think. I also think Taylor had to do some tuning on it.

[rich pierce]

I can understand how the banana lock plate can look great with this style, especially if it has the step wrist.
But the original Marshall rifle does not have that kind of lock plate.
So my question is why do all the copies use the banana lock when the original is more like the Siler?
IS there an original rifle somewhere of the same type transitional that used the banana plate?

I have a Chambers round faced Germanic lock I could use but sort of want a flat plate lock.

If you’re asking why don’t folks use the Siler lock on a Marshall rifle build, most folks see the Siler as a 1770s lock.  If you want something super special without a lot of banana, consider Chris Laubach’s CNC’d jaeger lock. It’s pricey but I cannot imagine a better lock being made.

[smylee grouch]

Another option might be the Chambers "Dale Johnson" lock with just a tad lower tail to transition into the wrist. Does kinda sorta look like a Siler and might fit that step wrist a tad better.

[blienemann]

Bigmon, have fun with your build.  The lock in Marshall rifle is its original lock.  All the kitmakers and certainly all the guys who make a version of the rifle do not use a banana lock.  Jud Brennan recently made a scratch copy of this rifle, and made the lock and triggers - check out his website.  Then he made one or more simpler versions of the rifle, and i think he used the Davis colonial lock.  You could reshape this lock, or use the Chambers gunmaker's lock as suggested, and reshape it.  The Siler is a ca 1780 lock with an English frizzen spring and screw, far from Marshall rifle in style and time - my opinion only.

Look around for more contemp versions of this important rifle, and see what you like.  Have fun, Bob

[smart dog]

Hi Bigmon,
I am in the exact same boat as you.  I am building a rifle closely inspired by the Marshall gun.  Zorne's "Albrecht" lock is about the closest match to the original with respect to the shape, length, and width of the lock plate.  It is actually pretty close.  However, it lacks a pan bridle and for some stupid reason, Zorne grinds away the rear portion of the lock bolster where you need to thread the rear lock bolt to match the Marshall side plate (see photo below). On the original gun that bolt hole is blind and there is engraving on the outside of the lock that covers where that hole would come out if drilled through.  You need the thick bolster to have enough threads.  In addition, the frizzen and mainspring are very weak and the lock internals still have casting seams and rough surfaces, much like L&R locks. 





The Siler lock is too small and you need a thicker bolster on the plate to achieve the correct wrist dimensions.  The Siler pan, flintcock, and frizzen on the gunmakers lock are too small.  I am going to use the Zorne locks but weld steel where the bolster should continue and possibly weld on a pan bridle.  I will also reshape, harden and temper all the springs. I'll turn it into a first class lock but it will take some work. 

dave   

[flinchrocket]

Unless you use a somewhat large breech barrel 1 3/16 you will compromise the wrist more than the thickness of the bolster.

[577SXS]

Here are the two Edward Marshall Chambers kits I made. I modified the trigger guards to suit me.




url image upload

[Elnathan]

None of the kits out there are exact copies of the Marshall rifle, as the original has a breech 1.26" across the flats and is 37 13/16" long, IIRC. The kits and part sets use D weight barrels 37" long.

I don't know if Jim designed the Early Germanic lock before making the kits, but either way I figure that he probably wanted a lock that was different enough from the Silers that it would fill a niche not yet taken, rather than introduce a slightly bigger version of a lock that was already very well known. Since the barrel is already lighter and shorter than the original, there isn't much drawback to using a slightly different kind of lock, particularly if it looks a bit better on the narrower breech than a direct copy would.

[Ron Scott]

If you are not planning a direct copy , you might consider Chris Laubach’s lock. I have a rifle in the planning stages that is based on the Edward Marshal rifle and have one of the Laubach locks for it.  It is certainly closer to the original than some of the others discussed. The function is flawless

[Bigmon]

Hello Folks,
I very much appreciate all the input I have and am receiving.  To me, this is a very interesting subject.  I am not attempting an actual copy of the Marshall rifle, but one of the same type I guess.  A transitional style as I believe its called.  I am only a novice at this gun building, maybe 10 or 12 over the last 30 years or so.  But since retirement have became hooked on these guns. 
But I do want to make them as authentic as I can, with-in my budget.
One thing I am doing is using the wood from my own cherry tree to build this last of three guns, one for each of my three sons with wood from the homestead.  Already completed is one from a Kibler Kit, the other a fowler I built from a plank.
I know that maple would be far more correct, but I am using my own cherry for sentimental reasons for the boys, who all are fine hunters and will use these guns.  In fact they all three already have rifles I made them years ago.
I will continue researching and studying these locks.  For now it is hunting season and that is taking up most of my time, next to the TV that is.
Thanks to all




download instagram pictures online

[Mike Brooks]

Zornes "Continental" lock is pretty close.

[Elnathan]

If you are not making a copy of the Marshal rifle, but just one of the same general lines, bear in mind that the smoothbore gun which was cut from the same stock pattern as the Marshal rifle  - pictured in the second Moravian Gunmakers book - uses an English style roundfaced lock.