Curly maple

[varsity07840]

Has anyone ever encountered what seems to be very porous tangential grain in a curly maple stock? The stock is fully shaped, with all parts fit and to my mind, no kind of sanding is going to help. I know that it's often referred to as end grain and I'm totally familiar with it's appearance at the end of a piece of hardwood, but I've never seen it to this degree in curl. Whiskering it hasn't helped. Is it safe to assume that finish coats will fill it. I certainly don't want it to look like a piece of end grain at the end of a board that's been sanded and finished.

[flinchrocket]

Maybe you should post a pic.

[varsity07840]

[Mike Brooks]

Appears to be typical tangential grain. I always  wondered what tangential grain was, now I know

[Stoner creek]

“Ghost Grain” a classic example of “Ghost Grain”.

[varsity07840]

“Ghost Grain” a classic example of “Ghost Grain”.

would you mind filling me in on that? I have seen something similar on ribbon stripe Honduras Mahogany.

[Mad Monk]

Has anyone ever encountered what seems to be very porous tangential grain in a curly maple stock? The stock is fully shaped, with all parts fit and to my mind, no kind of sanding is going to help. I know that it's often referred to as end grain and I'm totally familiar with it's appearance at the end of a piece of hardwood, but I've never seen it to this degree in curl. Whiskering it hasn't helped. Is it safe to assume that finish coats will fill it. I certainly don't want it to look like a piece of end grain at the end of a board that's been sanded and finished.

You might want to consider purchasing some orange dewaxed shellac in the dry flake form.  Lac had a long history of use in India.  During the 1600s the Portuguese began to import the raw lac from India into Europe.  It was in Europe that it was dissolved in alcohol and used as a form of wood finish.  Used straight as a common wood floor finish.  When used on goods that would be out in the weather they used it as a surface sealer under an oil or oil-based varnish finish.  I had seen shellac used on half-stock rifles made in Hagerstown Maryland after percussion ignition came.  I then started using it on my longrifles.  Using the dewaxed orange shellac in a dilute solution with alcohol.  It quickly sings into that very open and porous grain you mention.  After staining.   You doin't want it thick .  You want it to dry down in the open pores of the grain to act as a sealer and porosity blocker.  It dries very quickly and by all means you make the shellac solution fresh for each gun.  If you store it there will be an oxidation reaction between the alcohol and the lac.  It gets thicker and slower drying.  You don't want shellac in any amount of the surface of the wood.  That gives final oiling or varnishing adhesion problems.  This is also why you want the lac dewaxed.  Lots of sources found on Amazon and not overly expensive considering the small amount you use.  This lac also showed up on old Bedford County PA store records being purchased by gun makers.

There is something of a bonus of this shellac sealer and then boiled oil or oil based varnish over it.  First off is there is no visible indication there is any shellac on the wood.  The optical illusion presented by the interface between the shellac and oil or oil based finish makes a thin oil or oil based varnish look a lot thicker.  It alters the way the finish reflects light back to your eyes.   When you subject a shellac to high humidity it swells and stops the flow of moisture through the film you are using as a sealer coat(s).  That minimizes rapid changes in wood moisture content so you don't get all of the expansion and contraction stresses within the wood.  But shellac does not stand up to liquid water.  The boiled oil or oil based varnish top finish protests the shellac from the liquid water.  These two finishes compliment each other on the stock.   That shellac on the very fine wood fibers makes it very easy to smooth the wood's surface with very fine grit wet or dry sandpaper.

[Stoner creek]

“Ghost Grain” a classic example of “Ghost Grain”.

would you mind filling me in on that? I have seen something similar on ribbon stripe Honduras Mahogany.

That’s a tongue in cheek reference. Hold it one way, you see it, hold it another and you don’t. I’ve had more than my share of “experts” tell me all about “Ghost Grain” which translated to BS on my end.  There is nothing unusual about the piece of wood that you have presented here. It looks like a piece of Red Maple. Rock on!!

[varsity07840]

Has anyone ever encountered what seems to be very porous tangential grain in a curly maple stock? The stock is fully shaped, with all parts fit and to my mind, no kind of sanding is going to help. I know that it's often referred to as end grain and I'm totally familiar with it's appearance at the end of a piece of hardwood, but I've never seen it to this degree in curl. Whiskering it hasn't helped. Is it safe to assume that finish coats will fill it. I certainly don't want it to look like a piece of end grain at the end of a board that's been sanded and finished.

You might want to consider purchasing some orange dewaxed shellac in the dry flake form.  Lac had a long history of use in India.  During the 1600s the Portuguese began to import the raw lac from India into Europe.  It was in Europe that it was dissolved in alcohol and used as a form of wood finish.  Used straight as a common wood floor finish.  When used on goods that would be out in the weather they used it as a surface sealer under an oil or oil-based varnish finish.  I had seen shellac used on half-stock rifles made in Hagerstown Maryland after percussion ignition came.  I then started using it on my longrifles.  Using the dewaxed orange shellac in a dilute solution with alcohol.  It quickly sings into that very open and porous grain you mention.  After staining.   You doin't want it thick .  You want it to dry down in the open pores of the grain to act as a sealer and porosity blocker.  It dries very quickly and by all means you make the shellac solution fresh for each gun.  If you store it there will be an oxidation reaction between the alcohol and the lac.  It gets thicker and slower drying.  You don't want shellac in any amount of the surface of the wood.  That gives final oiling or varnishing adhesion problems.  This is also why you want the lac dewaxed.  Lots of sources found on Amazon and not overly expensive considering the small amount you use.  This lac also showed up on old Bedford County PA store records being purchased by gun makers.

There is something of a bonus of this shellac sealer and then boiled oil or oil based varnish over it.  First off is there is no visible indication there is any shellac on the wood.  The optical illusion presented by the interface between the shellac and oil or oil based finish makes a thin oil or oil based varnish look a lot thicker.  It alters the way the finish reflects light back to your eyes.   When you subject a shellac to high humidity it swells and stops the flow of moisture through the film you are using as a sealer coat(s).  That minimizes rapid changes in wood moisture content so you don't get all of the expansion and contraction stresses within the wood.  But shellac does not stand up to liquid water.  The boiled oil or oil based varnish top finish protests the shellac from the liquid water.  These two finishes compliment each other on the stock.   That shellac on the very fine wood fibers makes it very easy to smooth the wood's surface with very fine grit wet or dry sandpaper.

Thanks for the input.  I get the concept. It's similar to a wash coat  sanding sealer, which is  diluted, and is used to seal that kind of grain and allow it to be sanded smooth before staining, in order to prevent "blush" in the grain which is what I want to avoid. I've seen that happen with cherry and mahogany. It does open a can of worms in that I intended to use aqua fortis as a stain. I'm not sure how that's going to work.

[Stoner creek]

With softer woods you may want to go easy on the acid based stains. Practice on a piece of scrap wood if you have any!

[Not English]

Varsity, if it was me, I'd just go for it. It will just add more interest to the final product and probably won't be that noticeable.

[Mad Monk]

Has anyone ever encountered what seems to be very porous tangential grain in a curly maple stock? The stock is fully shaped, with all parts fit and to my mind, no kind of sanding is going to help. I know that it's often referred to as end grain and I'm totally familiar with it's appearance at the end of a piece of hardwood, but I've never seen it to this degree in curl. Whiskering it hasn't helped. Is it safe to assume that finish coats will fill it. I certainly don't want it to look like a piece of end grain at the end of a board that's been sanded and finished.

You might want to consider purchasing some orange dewaxed shellac in the dry flake form.  Lac had a long history of use in India.  During the 1600s the Portuguese began to import the raw lac from India into Europe.  It was in Europe that it was dissolved in alcohol and used as a form of wood finish.  Used straight as a common wood floor finish.  When used on goods that would be out in the weather they used it as a surface sealer under an oil or oil-based varnish finish.  I had seen shellac used on half-stock rifles made in Hagerstown Maryland after percussion ignition came.  I then started using it on my longrifles.  Using the dewaxed orange shellac in a dilute solution with alcohol.  It quickly sings into that very open and porous grain you mention.  After staining.   You doin't want it thick .  You want it to dry down in the open pores of the grain to act as a sealer and porosity blocker.  It dries very quickly and by all means you make the shellac solution fresh for each gun.  If you store it there will be an oxidation reaction between the alcohol and the lac.  It gets thicker and slower drying.  You don't want shellac in any amount of the surface of the wood.  That gives final oiling or varnishing adhesion problems.  This is also why you want the lac dewaxed.  Lots of sources found on Amazon and not overly expensive considering the small amount you use.  This lac also showed up on old Bedford County PA store records being purchased by gun makers.

There is something of a bonus of this shellac sealer and then boiled oil or oil based varnish over it.  First off is there is no visible indication there is any shellac on the wood.  The optical illusion presented by the interface between the shellac and oil or oil based finish makes a thin oil or oil based varnish look a lot thicker.  It alters the way the finish reflects light back to your eyes.   When you subject a shellac to high humidity it swells and stops the flow of moisture through the film you are using as a sealer coat(s).  That minimizes rapid changes in wood moisture content so you don't get all of the expansion and contraction stresses within the wood.  But shellac does not stand up to liquid water.  The boiled oil or oil based varnish top finish protests the shellac from the liquid water.  These two finishes compliment each other on the stock.   That shellac on the very fine wood fibers makes it very easy to smooth the wood's surface with very fine grit wet or dry sandpaper.

Thanks for the input.  I get the concept. It's similar to a wash coat  sanding sealer, which is  diluted, and is used to seal that kind of grain and allow it to be sanded smooth before staining, in order to prevent "blush" in the grain which is what I want to avoid. I've seen that happen with cherry and mahogany. It does open a can of worms in that I intended to use aqua fortis as a stain. I'm not sure how that's going to work.

The aqua fortis stain should be no problem.  The aqua fortis made with nitric acid and old pre WWII iron bolts was the stain I used on mine.  Did a number of them as did a few friends of mine.  It actually enhances the stain appearance with that light reflection thing.  You see all of the tiny "ticking" in the wood grain.  When you use the aqua fortis stain and then convert that to iron oxide on the wood it forms minute crystals in and one the wood's surfaces.  Take a good magnifying glass to the stock after the final finish coat.   When you first finish a stock this way it has what might be called a sparkle effect in the stain's appearance.  After a few years of aging that sparkeling effect goes away.
With the aqua fortis stain you may expect some darkening of the stain over the years.  You have the iron oxide stain in large amounts in the end grain that form the black curl in the wood.  The tannic acid level varies in the different stock blanks.  As the stock ages you have moisture constantly moving in and out of the wood through the finish.  As water leaves the stock, through the finish, it deposits tannic acid at the interface between the wood and the finish.  When you combine the iron with the tannic acid you get jet-black curl in a few years.  The mixture of tannic acid and an iron compound was the common writing ink dated back to at least the Romans and probably the Greeks.  Used commercially until steel tip pens around the time of the U.S. Civil War.  That mixture of tannic acid and iron compound was used as a standard black cellulose and protein fiber dye for ages.  Impregnate the protein fiber with the iron or a iron and tannic acid dye and bugs avoid it since the fabric is then toxic to them.

[varsity07840]

Thanks to all for the feedback. I just got some very helpful information and suggestions from Jim Kibler. Apparently I was not using a heavy enough sandpaper in my initial sanding. Going back over it with a coarser grit immediately showed improvement. Jim's suggestion that it was probably torn grain seems to be spot on. Thanks again to Jim Kibler for his quick response and good advice.

[Mike Brooks]

Scrapers solve that problem for me.

[Lucky R A]

Mike,  I think you are going off on a tangent....
Ron

[jerrywh]

I had one like this years ago. It helps to sand it wet with mineral spirits. But it won't ever be like you would like it. Sand with a metal block backed wet and dry paper. 1 or 2 coats of true oil for a base coat will make it look good.

[Mike Brooks]

I must be a moron.....That is probably already proven...  This looks like a typical piece of too soft red maple that needs sanded and/or scraped to get the fuzz off. Is there someting special here I'm missing?

[Lucky R A]

       I agree Mike,  I am sure after the piece is stained and finished, the horror of the "Tangential grain" will be consigned to the cold case file...

[varsity07840]

       I agree Mike,  I am sure after the piece is stained and finished, the horror of the "Tangential grain" will be consigned to the cold case file...

Excuse me for using a technical term.

[Daniel Coats]