Author Topic: what is the difference between a York county and late Lancaster rifle ? (Read 3647 times)

recurve · « **on:** January 25, 2021, 08:19:53 PM »

I have a nice early Lancaster (by Nate McKenzie

) but would like to build a lighter rifle(7pounds )
Cabin Creek has a York kit but is only offered in straight barrel up to 50cal ( wanted the barrel from their mountain rifle swamped 54, but they said no)
same with Chambers early York swamped to 50.
Trying to get to .54 38-42 inch would like to build(my skills are still limited)(I do not want the Kimber southern)
So what rifles most fit the York weight balance , that I may find in kit ?
Is there any rifles I could slim down?

rich pierce · « **Reply #1 on:** January 25, 2021, 08:34:58 PM »

I guess you’re asking about kit guns, not actual originals. One unintended outcome of standardized kits is folks start thinking that they represent the majority of originals they purport to be based on.

The weight of a rifle is usually barrel weight plus 3 and a half pounds. It can be more if for example the buttplate casting is heavy, it has a thick cast patchbox, etc. Overall weight can be barrel weight plus 3 pounds or slightly less if using sheet metal buttplate, guard, no box, the wood is not dense, and so on.

The balance of a rifle is mostly determined by the balance point of the barrel. A straight barrel 42” long will balance about 20” from the breech because the tang adds mass. A swamped barrel will balance closer to the breech by an inch or so. A shorter straight barrel balances at the halfway point also more or less.

The current “Isaac Haines” and “Marshall rifle” kits benefit from somewhat shorter barrels; often 38”.

With any 2 barrels of identical exterior dimensions, the bigger bore barrel will weigh less.

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #2 on:** January 25, 2021, 08:41:34 PM »

I think to get a clear picture of the true styling differences of the different schools of longrifle production you really have to study good clear photos, or the actual guns. Very few modern “reproductions” or kits are 100% authentic. They are primarily a compromised due to the challenges of availability of period, and style, of correct parts. Many of the little nuances of shape, and contour, are lost on most modern reproduction. Only manufacturers that have some control of furniture production, and lock styles, can get you close to what the original really looked like. JMO.

Hungry Horse

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #3 on:** January 25, 2021, 10:41:25 PM »

Differenced in York and Lancaster? They were built in different locations.

flinchrocket · « **Reply #4 on:** January 25, 2021, 11:04:59 PM »

Before 1749 York County was part of Lancaster County. So technically, no York rifles before that date.

smylee grouch · « **Reply #5 on:** January 25, 2021, 11:06:34 PM »

Do you want a York county style gun or one that is slimmer and lighter than an early Lancaster? You could buy a C weight 54 swamped barrel and have someone like Dave Keck inlet it into a blank and shape it to one of his York profiles less lock inlet but RR hole and grove cut and drilled.

HIB · « **Reply #6 on:** January 25, 2021, 11:20:14 PM »

Recurve, I suggest you invest in several cd's from the Kentucky Rifle Foundation library. One of the earlier ones supplied 10 or 11 guns from the York School. 9-10 photos of each gun. My original York School gun is considerably slimmer than my early Lancaster style Beck. [Lebanon was a part of Lancaster Co. early on] Your best bet would be to coordinate your effort with a collector who might be able to provide hands on experience. Regards, HIB

recurve · « **Reply #7 on:** January 26, 2021, 12:16:50 AM »

I guess I'm looking for advice on a slimmed down Lancaster (I like the look and feel, a little lighter and slimmer would be NICE , doesn't need to be historically correct)more golden age

So I turned to the "experts" for advise before spending my pension cash (26 yrs law enforcement ,6yrs US Army MP , 7 months World trade center recovery I.D.), age (heavy guns) are catching up with me.
I liked the cabin creek york when I visited his shop (it was a shrunken lancaster ) but not offered in 54 or swamped barrel.

Ky-Flinter · « **Reply #8 on:** January 26, 2021, 12:28:45 AM »

Recurve,

Take a look at the Isaac Haines kit from Jim Chambers...... http://www.flintlocks.com/rifles02.htm

I have one with a .50 cal B weight swamped barrel and it makes a nice light gun.

-Ron

recurve · « **Reply #9 on:** January 26, 2021, 01:05:32 AM »

Thank you --It's been a HARD year -loosing to an illness , persons passing- loosing our personal freedoms (lock downs ). Now the loss of things we all look forward to, Dixons last yrs builders fair, then Heritage builds show Lewisburg , and now Dixons fair gone forever, all the places to HANDS on with the builders and kit/parts suppliers.

Sorry I'm just tried of loosing>>>>--->Recurve out(aka bldtrailer)

Steeltrap · « **Reply #10 on:** January 26, 2021, 01:13:34 AM »

If you look at TOTW GM barrels, you can see where .54 Caliber barrels weigh from 5.75lbs up to 8.18lbs, depending upon barrel width.

Jim Chambers · « **Reply #11 on:** January 26, 2021, 03:34:39 AM »

As mentioned above, take a look at our Isaac Haines kit. That can be ordered with a 54 cal. swamped barrel. It uses the same buttplate as our York kit which makes the butt architecture very similar to a York style rifle. I have switched my personal hunting rifle from the Edward Marshall rifle to the Haines in 54 cal. That makes a light weight rifle that's easy to carry but still has enough power for anything short of a grizzly.

hortonstn · « **Reply #12 on:** January 26, 2021, 03:54:53 AM »

I built a chambers issac Haines in 54 with a 38 inch barrel it's a very nice rifle I've never weighed it

thecapgunkid · « **Reply #13 on:** January 26, 2021, 08:59:44 PM »

Rich Pierce...I guess you’re asking about kit guns, not actual originals. One unintended outcome of standardized kits is folks start thinking that they represent the majority of originals they purport to be based on.
The weight of a rifle is usually barrel weight plus 3 and a half pounds. It can be more if for example the buttplate casting is heavy, it has a thick cast patchbox, etc. Overall weight can be barrel weight plus 3 pounds or slightly less if using sheet metal buttplate, guard, no box, the wood is not dense, and so on.
The balance of a rifle is mostly determined by the balance point of the barrel. A straight barrel 42” long will balance about 20” from the breech because the tang adds mass. A swamped barrel will balance closer to the breech by an inch or so. A shorter straight barrel balances at the halfway point also more or less.
The current “Isaac Haines” and “Marshall rifle” kits benefit from somewhat shorter barrels; often 38”.
With any 2 barrels of identical exterior dimensions, the bigger bore barrel will weigh less.

Thanks so much, Rich. I wish there were more simple explanations like this available. Testimony to a forum...

borderdogs · « **Reply #14 on:** January 29, 2021, 06:12:52 PM »

I have a question about the York and Lancaster rifles, do any of the originals have iron mounts?
Rob

rich pierce · « **Reply #15 on:** January 29, 2021, 06:49:03 PM »

Quote from: borderdogs on January 29, 2021, 06:12:52 PM

I have a question about the York and Lancaster rifles, do any of the originals have iron mounts?
Rob

Statistically possible but of thousands known, perhaps 2 have iron mounts of similar form to the brass mounts that were used. Barn guns are a different story.

I’ve always found the interest in iron mounts interesting.

Johnny Dollar · « **Reply #16 on:** February 03, 2021, 01:48:51 AM »

Recurve,

I’d add my name to the suggestions that you take a hard look at Jim Chambers’ Issac Haines kit. I have had mine for a long while and it is a wonderful hunting rifle. It finishes up to be a very handsome piece. If you run into trouble with the build, Jim and Barbie are available to help you. Jim is pretty good with technical advise, but we all know that Barbie is the brains of the outfit...and much easier on the eyes.

rsherman · « **Reply #17 on:** February 03, 2021, 02:35:32 AM »

I agree with the guys recommending the chambers issac haines model in 54 cal, 38" swamped barrel. I've assembled and finished a couple and handled a bunch of them and they are a great woods gun.

GANGGREEN · « **Reply #18 on:** February 03, 2021, 03:30:40 PM »

I also have a Chamber's Isaac Haines on the bench with a B-weight, 38" .50 barrel. I think the gun will end up being just over 7 pounds and it's quite slender and appealing. I sent my own stock blank down and I'm really happy with the quality and curl of that piece of curly maple as well.

I also have a gunstock blank and a B-weight 42" .50 Getz barrel at Dave Keck's being profiled to his "light Lancaster" rifle and I suspect it will be around the same finished weight. The Chamber's kit is a little more "finished" than the Keck stock and barrel since I'm not having any inletting done on that light Lancaster, although both will require some gun building skills.

recurve · « **Reply #19 on:** February 03, 2021, 06:40:10 PM »

I'm leaning towards Chambers, I was hoping to see him at the 18th century Heritage show

(nope) or Dixons gun makers fair NOPE

..... wanted to sided by side with the cabin creek rifle...not this year

I have rerifle 50 to 54 and a new custom barrel being made at Bobby Hoyts so that will keep me till spring both 54 gain twist 32inch gpr, 36inch neither swamped

Johnny Dollar · « **Reply #20 on:** February 03, 2021, 06:50:38 PM »

Recurve,

Bobby H. Can do gain twist!??!!

Oh the possibilities!
This could be bad....
Hard on the marriage bad...

Must think on this!

News:

Author Topic: what is the difference between a York county and late Lancaster rifle ? (Read 3647 times)