Underlugs or underligs staples ?

[A.Merrill]

  Which would you use ? The barrel is 1in. × 7/8 .54cal. 34in. long. A Rice Hawken tapered  barrel.    Al

[B.Habermehl]

Under lugs carefully dovetailed in place. I seen or heard of too many disasters with staples. BJH

[smylee grouch]

I have used " T " iron to make the lugs, dove tail 1/32 deep and before I install the lugs I cut the center out of the portion against the barrel just slightly longer than the key is wide. The key is against the barrel 1/32 inch and through the loop too by the rest of the thickness of the key. Can help keep the barrel loop out of the ramrod hole. I found the T iron scrap from an old garage door opener and the steel is about 1/8" thick.

[flehto]

My first LR had staples for the  wedges and the staples were made from nails. Each "leg" of the staple had a "V" groove filed nearly at the end of the "leg". Shallow flat bottom holes slightly larger than the staple "leg" dia were drilled  to match the center distance of the staple "legs". The staple was pushed into the holes and metal from the bbl was peened into the grooves.  Still have the LR and there never were any bulges in the bore and the staples never became loose. Because of the excess time spent installing staples, never used them again. By the way.....the bbl was 7/8" across the flats and .45 cal.

Went to dovetailed bbl lugs but because the web near the breech on all my LRs is only .05/.06 thick, a conventional bbl lug won't work....so made one that would.  Cut the dovetail into the bbl {a plain slot would work because the 1/8" thick  bbl lug is soft soldered in}. The pin hole is laid out vertically on the stock w/ a depth mike, center punched,  the bbl/stock ass'y is clamped together at both sides of  the lug and then clamped in a vise w/ the top bbl flat against the permanent jaw. A parallel is used on the muzzle end to make the ass'y horizontal on the drill press table.  A #55 drill {.052} is used to drill through to the other side if a wedge is used  but for a music wire pin, a 1/16 drill is used {this is decided before the layout}.

If a wedge is used, a jewelers saw is used to rough in the slot and then a thin needle file completes the slot.. Actually the 1/16" wedge doesn't contact the bbl   only the brass lug. The slot in the photo is for a pin in lieu of a drilled hole.....Fred
 

[Herb]

I used to make mine out of finishing nails just as flehto says in his first paragraph.  Then to avoid drilling holes, I went to Track's  formed steel #UL-TC-3, making a dovetail .060" deep.  Thought that was the cat's meow, but have had about six of them tear out due to dropping the barrel or pulling it out of the stock.  Broke some of them and bent some.  I am finished with that one.  If you like a dovetail, use #UL-NW-3, milled of solid steel.  But I am going back to my staples.  After all, I drill four holes in the barrel for the underlug rivets, so I know how to drill holes in barrels.  And unless you solder that rib on, you are going to be drilling holes, too.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

When I first learned about staples, I fabricated one out of a nail, set it into a block of steel and staked down the feet with the surrounding metal.  then I tried to pry the staple out of the steel with a huge screw driver.  The staple did not come out but sheared from the pressure of the screw driver/lever.  I have since used dozens of staples, both hand made and commercial (TOW) without a single failure or problem.  But I still prefer to make my own tenons out of 1/32" thick sheet steel or brass, folding the 3/4" long strips in half, silver soldering the fold, and bending up the feet for the dovetail.  The silver brazing is the last step in their construction, followed by the piercing.

[P.W.Berkuta]

I tried staples three times and had success with two the third one my stop collar slipped and I drilled into the bore which made the barrel useless except for pistol barrels. I now use the shallow dovetail method with or without soft solder. I rarely go beyond 0.040" deep with the dovetail slot.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

When drilling holes in barrels, I never rely on a collar, but always use the quill stop on my drill press.  I can only imagine the frustration of making a fine swamped barrel into a flute.

[Stoner creek]

When drilling holes in barrels, I never rely on a collar, but always use the quill stop on my drill press.  I can only imagine the frustration of making a fine swamped barrel into a flute.

I did that once. The gun shot fine. I made it for a child. That kid won all kinds of sub-junior matches, the state 4-H championship (twice), and kept his dad busy butchering deer until he outgrew it and passed it on to his kid brother who did the same.
 I don’t recommend accidentally porting a muzzle loader barrel but it somehow worked out on this one. I drilled through on the upper most staple.

[Stoner creek]

I did this one today. #43 drill bit, a center punch, and clothes hanger wire. That clothes hanger wire makes good barrel lug pins too.
That’s a little trick that I picked up from a fellow from Woodbury.

[Scota4570]

The only way I would try to use staples is to drill on the milling machine and using the micrometer on the table level wheel to determine the depth.  I did it that way on my first real build.  It was structurally fine but ugly because of the peening. 

Now I always use milled lugs dovetailed and secured with solder or shaft sealant.  After they are finished flush with he barrel they look like they are integral.  There is no chance of drilling through or denting the bore.   

[A.Merrill]

Thanks for the information guy's.  Sounds like I'll be using staples, but I do like Freds way he has pictured. Just out of curiosity,  what did they use on orginal Hawken rifles?    Al

[577SXS]

I would NEVER use staples! Why! It's so easy to dovetail an underlug in. Dovetails can be very shallow. Staples need a deeper hole to have good contact and you are asking for trouble. I hate the looks of those center punched edges. It looks sloppy to me. Just my opinion.

[rich pierce]

Staples on original barrels are square in cross section. The legs have a foot sticking out. The mortise for the staple is square with a raised edge like some rear sight dovetails. The staple is popped in place then the raised edge is peened down.

I am not sure any drilling was employed in making the mortise. For me it would be more work to do it this way, using a die maker’s mortise chisel, than doing dovetails. I mostly see staples on guns with keys instead of pins through the tenon. And I hypothesize that they used staples because it was easy to make them wide and thus more bearing surface to resist wear when repeatedly removing and returning a barrel in a gun with keys.

The modern staples are an easy alternative unless something goes wrong.

[Herb]

I used to make mine out of finishing nails just as flehto says in his first paragraph.  Then to avoid drilling holes, I went to Track's  formed steel #UL-TC-3, making a dovetail .060" deep.  Thought that was the cat's meow, but have had about six of them tear out due to dropping the barrel or pulling it out of the stock.  Broke some of them and bent some.  I am finished with that one.  If you like a dovetail, use #UL-NW-3, milled of solid steel.  But I am going back to my staples.  After all, I drill four holes in the barrel for the underlug rivets, so I know how to drill holes in barrels.  And unless you solder that rib on, you are going to be drilling holes, too.

Uh- make that seven tear outs!  I have just ordered Track's underlugs #UL-36 to replace the two I have in the barrel now.  I inlet them flush with the barrel flat.  I hope they are thicker than .060 to hold better.  But the next build will be back to staples.

[rmnc3r]

I favor staples, using TotWs Punch and Staking tool, makin the staples from finishing nails.
I off-set, favoring one side of the flat or the other, alternating sides as I go, rather than placing them along the center-line.

[A.Merrill]

Staples on original barrels are square in cross section. The legs have a foot sticking out. The mortise for the staple is square with a raised edge like some rear sight dovetails. The staple is popped in place then the raised edge is peened down.

I am not sure any drilling was employed in making the mortise. For me it would be more work to do it this way, using a die maker’s mortise chisel, than doing dovetails. I mostly see staples on guns with keys instead of pins through the tenon. And I hypothesize that they used staples because it was easy to make them wide and thus more bearing surface to resist wear when repeatedly removing and returning a barrel in a gun with keys.

The modern staples are an easy alternative unless something goes wrong.

Rich, thank's for the information on orginal Hawken staples, it's interesting. Doing it that way would lessen the chance of making a dimple in the bore, I think.   Al

[flinchrocket]

A picture of the square staples that are mortised in the barrel would be interesting to see. Thanks if someone could post one.