Daryl, Those are on the list i have both , also after those are tried i will up the charge to around 7.5 grns powder. Don't know if i should go above 7.5 grns though. How much 3F do you think would compare to 5grns 4F powder. These lubed wads really did help with loading but the right one is out there some where just have to find it. May even try some .062 wads these are .125.