Burr-Hamilton Commemorative Dueling Pistols

[Seth Isaacson]

Does anyone here own a pair of these? If so, have you shot them and how have they performed? I have handled several pairs of them. They seem to be very well-made for "production" guns, but I know they are made primarily as collectibles not for shooting. Nonetheless, they are functional, and they can be had at reasonable prices for time to time and would certainly be a way to get a pair of quality pistols. If what I've read in the past is correct, they were all built by Walter Agnoletto in Italy.

[smart dog]

Hi Seth,
As commercial production I believe these pistols were pretty good.  However, they represent a pair of Wogdon's that was butchered by somebody who added the brass fore stocks.  They were almost certainly full stocked in wood by Wogdon and the brass added later, which destroyed the Wogdon balance.  The spurs on the trigger guards were almost certainly added later and so was the checkering.  The modern maker did not realize that barrel keys always are inserted from the side plate side on English guns.  The case is also not very authentic for a Wogdon supplied case. Below is a cased pair based on actual Wogdon pistols and a photo of an original pair.


dave

[Seth Isaacson]

Ive always thought they were oddly constructed compared to other English dueling pistols of the era and assumed the forends were a repair of some sort. I've never given a ton of serious consideration to the rest of the configuration given they do match how the surviving original pair are now minus that one of the pistols was converted to percussion. I have definitely seen other Wogdons with spurred trigger guards and checkered wrists, but I wouldn't be shocked if that was also an alteration given the forends.



Edit: the pairs you shared are gorgeous!

[Hungry Horse]

 The Wogdon pistols used in the dual that cost Alexander Hamilton his life, wasn’t the first or only dual these pistol participated in. It is likely that the brass forearms  were added because one of the guns suffered damage to it forestock. The triggerguard spur no doubt was an effort to neutralize the now tremendously nose heavy pistols.

 Hungry Horse

[Seth Isaacson]

I like that theory. His son Philip was killed by a shot fired from one of the pistols on the same grounds as Hamilton. Those pistols are tied to some real tragedy.

[smart dog]

Hi,
Perhaps the brass was added to fix damage but the fashion for English dueling pistols at the beginning of the 19th century was for heavy barrels and spurred guards.  The intent was to correct the tendency to shoot high, which was why Wogdon mistakenly bent his barrels downward.  That was the reason his barrels (and he made his barrels) had considerable swamp to hide the slight bend.  It was a flawed idea but his pistols were renowned for accuracy out to 15-20 yards. which was all that was important. The light and lively feel of Wogdons was abandoned by most gun makers during the first decade of the 1800s.  I suspect the brass was added for weight not to fix damage.

dave

[Hungry Horse]

 Why in the world would you add that much barrel weight to a dualer that had a single set trigger if you didn’t have too? Even with the addition of the trigger spur, the likelihood of doing just what Hamilton did, would be too much of a chance to take in my opinion.

  Hungry Horse

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

HH:  what did Hamilton do?

[smart dog]

Hi HH,
Why would you repair fore stock damage by adding heavy brass stocks on both pistols if you did not want the weight?   The damage could be repaired with wood or perhaps making them half stocks like the fashion at the the time.  During the 19th century, British dueling pistols became very muzzle heavy.  I did not like the feel of the 19th century Mantons, Gulley, and Innes pistols that I handled because of the weight.  My target shooting friends like that weight but I do not.  Compared with earlier Wogdons, the 19th century pistols were dead weights.

Taylor, there are lots of myths about the Hamilton Burr duel.  One is that Hamilton did not realize the pistols had "secret" hair triggers and he fired prematurely into the air as a result.  He was almost certainly familiar with the pistols because his 19 year old son used the same pair in an earlier duel in which he was killed. In fact, that duel occurred 3 weeks before at the same location as the Burr-Hamilton duel.  Moreover, hair or set triggers were the norm in British dueling pistols so they were no secret to anyone but that myth gets perpetuated even by historical writers such as Merrill Lindsay.  The manner of the duel debunks that myth because according to accounts written by the seconds, Burr and Hamilton were told to "present" or level their pistols at each other and then fire when they pleased.  This was not snap shooting and both pistols had good front and rear sights.  Hamilton wrote a letter to a friend before the duel expressing his intent to fire first and miss to give Burr a chance to reconsider firing.  Hamilton knew his letter would be published after the duel if he was killed and he may have written it so it would paint Burr as a cold blooded murderer.  As for Burr, he always stated that he intended to kill Hamilton.

dave     

[Seth Isaacson]

Philip Hamilton died on November 24, 1801, so much earlier than just three weeks given Alexander Hamilton died on July 12, 1804

I do agree that he was likely familiar with how the pistols worked given he was the one who selected them. John B. Church, the owner of the pair, would certainly have showed them how they functioned if he was a decent brother-in-law.

[Hungry Horse]

 I have to say there is a big difference between knowing a muzzle heavy pistol with a single set trigger is hard to control, and actually always being able to control it. I had a first hand experience with just such a pistol. A long time member of our gun club built himself a target pistol. Now it didn’t have brass forearms but it did have a long heavy custom barrel, a single set trigger, and a relatively diminutive grip. After three or four accidental discharges, the board banned it from future events.
 I don’t know about the construction, or function of the single set trigger in the Church duelers, but I do know that many single set triggers will not fire unset, which would have left Hamilton no option.

  Hungry Horse

[smart dog]

Hi Seth,
Yeah, I meant 3 years not three weeks.

dave

[Mike Brooks]

Let's settle all of this with a duel.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I remember one occasion when I lost a duel with my brother.
My Hawken pistol has a single set trigger that is adjustable for weight.  I had mine set up very fine, which worked well for the kind of shooting I'm used to.  But the match runner insisted that we both point our pistols at the sky, then level on command, and fire.  The target is a double disc connected with a horizontal bar.  The first target hit swings the other out of line and makes it impossible to hit.  Daryl is a snap shot, and so I knew I had to shoot fast to win.  But I didn't get the chance,  When I raised my cocked pistol the weight of the trigger alone fired the thing, and I was eliminated.  Daryl took his time, like Burr, and hit his mark.

[Daryl]

That's digging back into years past.
We had a number of duels on that machine, mostly with rifles. 

[Joey R]

Sounds like fun!

[Daryl]

It was, Joey - the English Sporting rifle is undefeated in that duel!
No matter who used it, it always won. There is no rifle that points as naturally.