Stitching bags

[flatsguide]

I may want to attempt making my own bag and would like to know what the stitch count is per inch SPI on the finer made bags. Watching YouTube vids on stitching, some advocate stitching with awl in the hand including needles and other use Japanese pricking irons that punch diagonal diamond holes through all the pieces of leather to be stitched, is one method easier to use? A little added info on needle and thread sizes would help too.
Another question just came to mind, if I want to use a lining in a bag say a lighter weight leather or cloth, what adhesive would be used to adhere the leather or cloth so it would stay ‘stuck’ and not hang down like an old jalopy headliner after a bit of use.
Thanks Richard

[Brokennock]

I use the pricking irons just to mark where I will poke my holes, and the slant I will poke them at, with an awl as i stitch. I have found that trying to punch through 2 or 3 layers of leather with the irons/chisels results in the holes not lining up as they tend to wander through the layers. Also, with  some leathers the holes will somewhat close before you get to them causing you to need to poke with the awl anyway.
I do use an overstitch wheel to mark my hole locations sometimes. But, it doesn't mark the slant of the hole. And, I seem to lack the ability to maintain a consistent distance from the edge of the leather when using one.
I mostly use the chisel or wheel that gives me about 6 holes per inch i think. I have a wheel that does 7 and an  iron that does, I believe, 9 to the inch. These last 2 don't get used much.

Do a search on here for the series of topics entitled "every man a cobbler," lots of good tips there. I can't say I've masters the technique, but, tapering your thread, even fine thread, makes a huge difference in pulling it through the holes in the leather.

[hawkeye]

I use most of my stitching work a antique leather clamp I did find on a flea market and this stitching awl

[Frank Barker]

Flatsguide, I mark my holes with a 6 stitches per inch marking wheel. I also have a 7 SPI and an 8 SPI but for bags and most all other work I use the 6. Just make sure you mark ALL your stitches with the same stitch per inch wheel or your holes won't line up and you will end up with something for the scrap pile. I have a couple of Tandy awl's, they punch a diamond shape hole and I punch mine in a straight line. It makes a much neater stitch than punching at an angle and I punch them all individually. Be careful as those Tandy awl's are sharp and will puncture your hand as well as leather.
I use a blunt nose saddle stitch needles and I mostly saddle stitch my projects using two needles at a time. I order my needles also from Tandy.
As far as thread is concerned I have purchased pre waxed rolls of 25 yards from Tandy which is pretty expensive. I sometimes use pre waxed rolls from Walmart, be sure it is made in Taiwan as the cord made in China is not as strong. I sometimes have used Hemp Cord from Walmart or JoAnns Fabric and in all cases either buy it pre colored in black, brown, white or ivory or dye it yourself before you wax it with bee's wax.
I also have a large roll of white linen cord that I dye what ever color I need and then wax it before use. I get it from Landwerlen Leather and it is a 4 cord natural soft linen. They also have leather, dye's and other leather making goods. They're wonderful people and are very helpful. Their phone number is 1-317-636-8300.
I sometimes use barge cement but lately I have used Fabric-Tac from Jo Ann's. It will hold leather and cloth and is much easier to use than the barge cement. and it will not discolor your fabric or leather.
I think I have covered most of your questions and if you have any more feel free to private message anytime.

Kind Regards
Frank Barker

[thecapgunkid]

Welcome aboard....if you don't do something in leather somewhere along the line  then you're in the wrong hobby.

Brokkennock advised you to search through "Every Man A Cobbler" and you would be doing me a favor if you checked it out.  I've known the guy who wrote it for 71 1/2 years and He'd like to know whether the info is priceless or poopies or somewhere in between.
Have at it and good luck.  A lot of the guys being on this forum will be a big help to you
Capgun

[Garret]

Good Morning Flatsguide,
You've posed a good question!  Before I get to your main question I would like to reinforce what Brokennock commented on regarding the pricking irons.  In traditional English/European saddlery and harness work the irons are meant for marking and not punching through the leather.  The diamond awl then is used to pierce your holes one at a time and follow with your two needles and thread.

With the irons I've found them to be a great way to set up your stitching pattern and to get you "in the zone" when it comes to the correct angle for your diamond awl.  The diagonal pattern is important to offset your needle enough to keep from piercing the thread that you've just laid in the same hole.  When you have the feel and practice for it it makes for an attractive stitch line that is so evident in traditional leatherwork.  For straight lines the wider irons are great and for going around curves a two prong allow you to follow the line.  Irons are expensive to purchase, so unless you have the money to afford a big selection, it's definitely a good thing to make some decisions on what you want to use on your work.  A star wheel is a good way to start out as they're relatively in expensive and you can experiment with different stitch counts before making a big investment.

Now getting to your question on stitch count, the really fine bags are being made with at least 8 per inch and more.   A lot has to do with weight of leather in addition to the item being made.  Take a good look at some of the finer style bags posted on this forum in other threads and I think you'll see what I mean.

Best wishes to you in your endeavors!  Keep well and safe.

Garret

[James Rogers]

Flatsguide,
Just a few things I'm going to rattle off on my lunch break in an attempt to answer most of your questions. Don't look too hard at spelling and punctuation : )
I would use 7 to the inch or greater.
Finer work will have 10 to the inch or more.
The finest work I've seen was on a leather covered buckle at 32 to the inch.
Old saddlers and harness records show the charges per sitches per inch for increasingly finer work.
If you want to do it in a professional manner, use two needles (or boar bristled waxed ends) and an awl, keeping all three in hand as you stitch , making only one hole at a time. There are of course certain stitch types and instances this is not done but described above is how you proceed with the true saddle stitch.
Unless you want to follow the current fad of pre-punching all the holes to where you are not actually stitching but in effect lacing up your project with thread, don't use the modern Asian stitching chisels.  Instead use pricking irons or a pricking wheel, both of which have slanted teeth to direct the proper angle of your awl to prevent stitch ripout. Neither of these tools are made to go thru the leather but just mark the stitch line. Most all of my irons are one inch wide although I have some wider and a few narrower. For curves I generally use my one inch irons and just rock up on the iron and use only one or two of the edge teeth as I travel around. Bear in mind that much of what is being sold today as pricking irons are in fact stitching chisels. They look similar but the teeth are much too sharp and do not leave a good impression. They are designed in shape to punch thru but most of them are not up to that job as they are Chi-com rubbish.  There are a few makers that are using good steel that is treated correctly to withstand but they are expensive.
Your best bet for tools that work is Bruce Johnson Leather Tools on the internet. He sells used tools that are in good working order.
If you can't locate a pricking iron or wheel then use an overstitch wheel at the desired TPI but you will have to estimate awl angle and keep it consistent to make your all your stitches lay the same. A saddlers clam or some type of clamp to hold your work without catching the thread at every pull is needed. Hand shoe tacks work a treat to hold your pieces together but many today use office binder clips very successfully.  Dye your leather prior to stitching and if you want your thread dyed a different color than its current hue,  do so prior to waxing and stitching. 
For general work, do not use a stitch groover. It puts the stitches in a trough and ruins their lay for early work and gives it the look of western style later period leather work.

Barge or Weldwood and be used to join leather to leather or Elmer's white glue will work if you have stitching all around. For fabric I would use some form of spray adhesive.

I hope this helps in some way.

The stitching in the picture below is 10 to the inch



Buckle stitched over at 32 to the inch

[heinz]

James, thank you.  I will use that.

[Brokennock]

I've gotten nice linen thread from The Quartermaster General but it is in small spools like what is sold for sewing fabric. I do really like the Carriage brand of hemp thread from Tandy. It isn't cheap but it is very strong and very smooth compared to usual hemp "thread," it is finished much more like regular linen thread.

I now get my needles from Weaver leather, as well as having gotten their very handy (pun untended) stitching clam.



save facebook pictures to phone

While not 100% essential, it does make things a lot easier.
I usually don't mount it to anything, I just sit on the end of the long base.

A couple notes on some things others have mentioned.
If you are going to get a diamond awl from Tandy, get the series with the black handle, much better quality. There are better awls out there, and many different type for different purposes, but these get expensive quick.
Yes, the Tandy awl is very, very , sharp. But, you need to keep it that way, and do so without loosing the shape. Which is another good reason to not buy the most expensive awl right away, why mess that up learning to sharpen your awl. I touch mine up every time I start a line of stitching, and with certain leathers if the run is long might polish it a bit in process.

Avoid those "lock stitch" "stitching awls." Not sure why they call it a "lock stitch" because if you cut one stitch nothing is stopping it from unraveling.
I recently had to pull a line of stitch that I had worked very hard to do a proper saddle stitch on,,, what a pain it was to pull that apart.

I know the "poke and stitch" 2 needle method sounds intimidating and tedious, but, it is worth it and not so bad once you get going with it. And, you will be much happier with your finished work.

I forgot to mention it in my 1st post. Along with Capgun's topic series, get yourself a copy of Al Stohlman's book,

[flatsguide]

Gentlemen, I can not thank you enough for the all the thought that went into your reply’s.
Thank you Brokennock for explaining the technique that you employ and the tip to the Every man a cobbler series, glanced at it briefly but I think it will be helpful to me.
Hawkeye, I don’t know about the sewing awl that you show, I don’t think they do a saddle stitch, but I may be wrong.
Frank, thanks for the detailed reply on the technique you use on you work. I notice on James Rogers bag that he uses two styles of stitching one angled and one straight, as you mentioned that you use. So the stitching style one uses can add or detract from the beauty of the object one is making, a lot of subtle stuff going on.
Thecapgunkid, now that is a cool moniker! Every Man a Cobbler, I assume written by some youngster, on first glance looks interesting and I’m looking forward to reading it...thank you.
Garrett, thanks for the good info that will help this newbie get started. So many ways to achieve the same results, so practice is the order of the day and practicing the different techniques of wether to use an awl or just punch your holes in one shot will be interesting to explore.
James, the suggestion about dying the leather first is a great tip and I’m sure others reading this will have an ah ha! moment also. What you wrote is very helpful with good insights and gives me a lot to think about so thank you very much.
I need to make a clamp for stitching, something simple that I can place on a chair. What is a comfortable height for the clamping jaws in relationship to your eye level or shoulder level.
Again thank you all.
Cheers Richard

[James Rogers]

Flatsguide, all my stitches are angled. Those vertical stitch lines are giving you an optical illusion and are laying about 3/4" below surface of the leather areas between them.
A sure way to get a non-angled stitch line is to run it in a gouge.  This is commonly seen on western cowboy gear.

It is true those Speedy Stitchers are incapable of sewing a saddle stitch.  They only make the exact same lock stitch that a sewing machine makes and would be acceptable for use on work that is to represent the post 1870 items.

[Clark Badgett]

To put just touch of context to what Mr. Rogers said up thread. I used to own a few pieces of 19 th century British military gear and they averaged 12 SPI.

[Brokennock]

Flatsguide, that clam or clamp I show is only about $20 from weaver Leather. I find it to be money well spent. I did glue a piece of leather, rough side out to each of the jaws to tighten them up and make them a little more non-slip.
Capgun Kid wrote that "Every Man a Cobbler," series. I copied and pasted most of them, including the useful replies from the likes of James Roger's and Marc Ruger, to WORD files and saved them.

[flatsguide]

Capgunkid’s articles are very interesting. I agree, James and Mark’s work are the benchmark to strive for. I truly believe that perfection is unobtainable but to strive for it is part of the challenge and fun.
Thanks again guys for all the good information...I’m sure I’ll have many more questions.
Stay well all,
Cheers Richard

[thecapgunkid]

Flatguide... I truly believe that perfection is unobtainable...

Not true.  Almost everything about leatherwork is a procedure that you will master with patience and repetition and tool selection. 
Your number one enemy is simply forcing and fighting with the project in impatience.

Keep looking at posts here and you will see what I mean about quality.  These guys all had to start somewhere.

Thanks for the message, by the way.

[Nordnecker]

It was just about a year ago that I started thinking about my first bag. It was a learning curve to say the least. I got some good advice here. I enjoyed it. I have sort of forgotten a lot of the details. In spite of not having all of the materials that I might have "needed", my bag has held it's shape, stayed supple and I'm pretty happy with it.

[flatsguide]

Captngunkid, what I meant by perfection being “unobtainable” is that no matter how good one gets at any craft even after the craft becomes art such as some of the makers of accoutrements, guns and rifles on this forum build, the maker can almost always see, I believe, things that he could improve or do better on. Of course starting out one will have more obvious mistakes but that should not deter one from continuing. I’m fortunate in a way to be fairly handy with my hands but my personal make up causes me to have various interests over my 82 years on the planet and therefore have mastered none. My first love, are guns, and started fiddling with them on and off since I was 13. I just wonder what kind of work I could be doing if I “stayed with it” for all these years.
I want to thank you again and all the others that so freely share their skills on this forum. Many of us are at the age that remember how difficult it was to before the internet to get any knowledge on how to do things. Now, skills that took years to learn are condensed and I think we are seeing finer work than ever before.
Best to all, Richard

[RMann]

What a great thread for me to learn from, and steer me for further understanding, sources, etc.  I really value all the resources, mainly  you all! Richard (flatsguide) asked all my current questions for me, as I plan my first bag, from my first bark tanned buckskin.  Thanks all, RMann

[Frank Barker]

There is one more important thing that is easily overlooked when saddle stitching or any other type of sewing stitch and that is how tight you pull each individual stitch. It is something that is developed over time and can mean a lot when it comes to the finished product. If your stitch is to tight it will cause your work to pucker especially with light or thin leather like buckskin. I use a diamond shape punch on most everything I make and some use a small drill to make their holes. It is just a matter of preference but the diamond shape hole due to its design causes the stitch to lock into place weather it is punched in a straight line or on an angle.
Kind Regards
Frank Barker

[flatsguide]

RMann, Is it great or what...folks sharing their hard earned skills.
Thank you all again
Richard

[thecapgunkid]

Frank Barker...If your stitch is to tight it will cause your work to pucker especially with light or thin leather like buckskin.

This is a good point and I am sorry I overlooked it in Every Man A cobbler.  Pucker is almost always caused by each stitch being too long.  Another way of saying that is too few stitches to the inch.  If you are using one of those chisel thingies, try getting one where the blades are on a bias rather than straight end to end and use an awl to stab in between each chisel slot.