Author Topic: Religious symbols on rifles  (Read 20305 times)

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Religious symbols on rifles
« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2008, 06:59:37 PM »
Lorentz Kafka describes very convincingly many symbols to be found on the longrifle.

Anything in three symbolizes the Trinity, three dots, three scrolls, etc.

The Lion symbolizes Christ, so does the Lamb.

The Large C-scroll, with a smaller scroll within is the Madonna and Christ child.

Lorentz can go through a rifle and point out item by item all the symbolism. It's fascinating. Part of the puzzle is the maker and his beliefs, the culture of the time, the religious suppression, or just delight in having a medium in which one can express themselves. I don't pretend to understand it, but it's a great subject for study.
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Stonefeather

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Re: Religious symbols on rifles
« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2008, 07:49:08 PM »
I don't think that every decorative element on the old rifles has to have some sort of meaning. For example, the acanthus leaf is a standard baroque decoration that was used in many artifacts and media besides guns back in the 17th century, and originally appears well over a thousand years earlier on the tops of Corinthian columns. It could be, too, that some elements originally did have a meaning of some sort, but were carried on through the years just because it was traditional. Genuine Masonic symbols surely had meaning, but even they may have gone on to live a life of their own because they "looked cool," or however they would have said it then. Meanings could have been attributed to designs, speculatively and after the fact, that were either different in the original concept, or which were put there originally for purely artistic reasons. These days, maybe the most we can say is that it's all about what it means to you, personally, when you add a symbolic element to the design of your rifle.


Offline Long John

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Re: Religious symbols on rifles
« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2008, 08:00:28 PM »
The fish has long been a Christian symbol.    See Matthew Chapter 4, Verses 18 through 22.  (post editted by JMC)

Best Regards,

John Cholin
« Last Edit: August 12, 2008, 12:45:12 AM by Long John »

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Religious symbols on rifles
« Reply #28 on: August 11, 2008, 10:39:43 PM »
Long John.
  Thanks for proving my point.
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline Elnathan

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Re: Religious symbols on rifles
« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2008, 12:35:04 AM »
I find it a very funny- odd symbol to be on a rifle- Religious symbols on rifles if you think about the 10 Commandants is very strange- 1 of the Commandmants was " Thou Shalt not Kill" most all of the people killed for 200 years were killed with rifles- so if you think about it Religious Symbols on a rifle is very Hipocritical, because you just broke the Law of the Commandmants when you killed someone. Now I know some of you are going to jump in and say Oh thats different, God wanted everyone to have a longrifle to kill someone else- not true- the 10 Commandmants din't have the 11th one sayiing its okay to kill if you put a symbol on a rifle. If you want to disagree with this then you might just not totally believe the "Bible" where its printed. I find that most who think they believe in the Bible have found ways to alter or reinvent what it really meant to say. I believe that maybe hidden guilt was behing the symbols, to give the gun maker piece of mind knowing sooner or later someone would be killed.

This may sound a bit too convenient, but I believe that the literal meaning of those words which came down to us through several languages are "Thou Shalt not murder."  Like everything, it's not as simple as believing what someone else like me says, but should be investigated and tested against scripture as a whole.   Just  my .02.

The original Hebrew command is lo tirtzach, with ratzach being the verb in question. Judging from the entry in my Hebrew & Aramaic lexicon it appears that like many or most Hebrew words, it has a variety of related meanings depending on context, and while it can mean "kill" (and is used in that sense towards animals), given that in other places the Torah sets execution as the penalty for certain crimes and in other places commands war and killing of enemy populations, it seems pretty obvious that the best English translation for the sixth commandment is "murder." That is certainly how the people of the 18th century, apart from certain pacifist sects, would have understood it.

Besides, longrifles were first and foremost hunting weapons, not military...

Stonefeather has a pretty good point, I think - a lot of symbols had a religious origin, but it is not always certain that the people who made them had that meaning uppermost in mind when making them.
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

flintman-tx

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Re: Religious symbols on rifles
« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2008, 01:01:15 AM »
Goex is right. In Hebrew, it means "commit murder". It does not address self defense, accidents or serving in the military. The Israelites had " Cities of Refuge" spread out over the land where you could run to in such events. The priestly code of Israel said that you would be tried and if it was not murder, you would be allowed to live in that city of refuge until the death of the high priest and then you would be free to return to your home. There is a different dealing with cold-blooded murder. With this in mind, it seems HIGHLY UNLIKELY  that the gun builders were doing this " out of guilt".

PINYONE

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Re: Religious symbols on rifles
« Reply #31 on: August 12, 2008, 11:36:29 PM »
Fellers - most everyone that originally came to America came for religiuos freedom and escape religious persecution. Knowing how primitive conditions were at that time- I don't believe the average gunsmith had the spare time to study Hebrew and Ancient Biblical writings. I think for the most part as today the gunsmith bck then was copying everyone around him, just as today- there is hardly no one making rifles that are not copied from some old school, look at how many Bucks and Lehigh rifles are being turned out. These guys today are guessing at what the symbols meant just as the old timers were. There are so many different versions of what the inlay in front of the trigger guards mean- is it an Indian, Rev war guy- who knows. 100 years from now people are going to be saying, what is up with so many Lehigh rifles? Today if a builder builds his own ideas that do not look copied - then they call it a Fantasy rifle- 200 years ago all of them were fantasy. PINYON

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Religious symbols on rifles
« Reply #32 on: August 13, 2008, 12:37:06 AM »
Oerter was a Moravian, made the Griffon gun. The Griffon is/was on the coat of arms of Czheckoslovakia and a popular symbol in other  countries from that region. The Moravians fled Europe to avoid persecution. Did Oerter make up the Griffon out of thin air, or was it a symbol he chose to honor his roots? Many possible explanations, but it is unlikely that it was an accidental choice of symbols.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2008, 12:38:15 AM by Acer Saccharum »
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George F.

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Re: Religious symbols on rifles
« Reply #33 on: August 13, 2008, 01:20:53 AM »
Dixon's had a seminar years ago about religious symbols on long rifles. The instructor's name was Hasablam or something like that, I think it was 1994 or 95. If there's more interest maybe we can make an inquiry.

Offline B.Habermehl

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Re: Religious symbols on rifles
« Reply #34 on: August 13, 2008, 02:43:04 AM »
The presenter's name was Lorenz Kafka. I was at that seminar.
BJH

Offline Jim Filipski

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Re: Religious symbols on rifles
« Reply #35 on: August 13, 2008, 04:29:23 AM »
Gentlemen my two cents:
Lorentz  can read into things what we can see in the clouds!
Jim
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timM

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Re: Religious symbols on rifles
« Reply #36 on: August 13, 2008, 05:01:34 AM »
I believe Mr. Kafka has made his mark in this realm.  I for one feel graditude for his efforts. tim

Offline Jim Filipski

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Re: Religious symbols on rifles
« Reply #37 on: August 13, 2008, 02:32:46 PM »
No denying that he has a valid point on many of his findings.
However in some instances I feel more is read into them than what the original maker set out to create.

Jim
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for it is better to be alone than in bad company. "      -   George Washington

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Offline Stophel

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Re: Religious symbols on rifles
« Reply #38 on: August 13, 2008, 03:51:59 PM »
I agree, he gets a little carried away.
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Religious symbols on rifles
« Reply #39 on: August 13, 2008, 04:04:39 PM »
Jim, I don't doubt Lorentz may read into things that may not have been intended by the builder. If you had the builder here to talk with, you might find the real story. But we don't have that luxury. I feel that Lorentz's research has validity in many cases,  but I would not say that every gun was created with the intent to use religious symbols.

I am sure guns were decorated with elements that are religious symbols in some cultures, yet the builder was unaware of such.

So a symbol, even an unintended, or naive use of symbol, is still a symbol. So now you get into interpreting the artwork. What's in the smile of the Mona Lisa? Too many unknowns.

a good topic, I must say.

Tom
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